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0 pointssteveklabnik10y ago0 comments

  > you can see C++ adopting pretty much the borrow checker as a tool

This may be because I'm too close to it, but the Core Guidelines are similar in ways, but also very different. Preventing data races is an explicit non-goal, for example, whereas in some ways, it's the focus of the borrow checker.

  > Rust has no major production deployments of which I am aware

Dropbox is the latest production user, as of last month. And it's serious production usage: how the bytes get stored on disk, basically the core of the whole business.

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nickpsecurity10y ago

I'd really like to know how well that works out at Dropbox. How honest and public do you think they'd be if major data losses resulted from Rust crapping out on them? I'm not sure about them but lots of businesses keep such things on the DL.

I think it's a risky move. I'd have first deployed existing, native code along with Rust in parallel using the data splitting technique so some is saved with original and some with Rust. Any compiler or library related issues on Rust side would be caught without data loss. I wonder if they did this in alpha stage and how long that lasted.

I mean, I love seeing Rust in production and some success stories would be great. It's just... wow, that's pretty mission critical for what I gather is still a beta-phase tool. I'd be testing on the middle or front-end layers first given they're usually stateless(ish).

pcwalton10y ago

> I think it's a risky move.

> It's just... wow, that's pretty mission critical for what I gather is still a beta-phase tool.

I think this is very '90s thinking. Extreme "if it's not C++, you can't deploy it!" conservatism about programming languages hasn't been true for well over a decade. Paul Graham has written some nice essays about this very phenomenon.

Also, Rust is not "a beta-phase tool".

New languages are much easier to deploy since the PL Renaissance. There are a few holdout industries that still stick with C++ no matter what, such as games, but they'll come around eventually. :)

nickpsecurity10y ago

You've been in discussions on this forum where I slam both C and C++. I'm clearly against it unless I absolutely have to use it due to its issues. That's why your strawman is more amusing than most. My actual argument was that new tools are usually unstable in terms of features, implementation bugs, and (with compilers) performance. So, default recommendation for mission-critical apps are mature tools whose strengths and weaknesses are well-understood so pro's can use them robustly.

Back to beta-phase claim, you're saying the core features and compiler of Rust are no longer in development or testing? Totally stable now with only extensions, library features, and optimizations being added? If so, that's good news and I'll drop that claim in the future. Otherwise, it's in the beta phase. Another hint would be existence of any bugs with core functionality in your compiler or libraries.

Again, though, if the spec and core functionality are frozen with all bugs fixed then I won't call it beta. Is it there yet?

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kibwen10y ago

  > I'd have first deployed existing, native code along with 
  > Rust in parallel using the data splitting technique so 
  > some is saved with original and some with Rust.

Yes, this is how Dropbox tests all of their features, and they did this with their new Rust-based storage engine as well. This tool has been in development for over a year by now and has seen extensive multi-stage testing (at first handling only a few terabytes of data, then "just" petabytes, and now exabytes).

nickpsecurity10y ago

I was expecting they probably did given what's on the line. Re-reading it, I realize it probably didn't come off that way. Gotta work on that.

Thanks for the confirmation, though. I do look forward to reading the experience report. Hoping they include data on all key attributes vs prior language: productivity, debugging time comparison, CPU use, memory use, integration issues, and any changes in defect rates. Community evaluating Rust needs that data for something at this level.

steveklabnikOP10y ago

The project lead already said on Reddit that if Dropbox loses data, it's now Rust's fault, so... :)

The project was a whole team of engineers working for almost a year, with extensive testing. At least, that's what I've heard. So like, I think they did exactly what you said, it's just that it's ready by now.

nickpsecurity10y ago

Oh shit! That's one hell of an endorsement [in the making]. I bet the excitement and suspense are thick in the office, eh? Hope it works out for adoption reasons.

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nickpsecurity10y ago

pcwalton10y ago

> I think it's a risky move.

> It's just... wow, that's pretty mission critical for what I gather is still a beta-phase tool.

Also, Rust is not "a beta-phase tool".

New languages are much easier to deploy since the PL Renaissance. There are a few holdout industries that still stick with C++ no matter what, such as games, but they'll come around eventually. :)

nickpsecurity10y ago

Again, though, if the spec and core functionality are frozen with all bugs fixed then I won't call it beta. Is it there yet?

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kibwen10y ago

  > I'd have first deployed existing, native code along with 
  > Rust in parallel using the data splitting technique so 
  > some is saved with original and some with Rust.

nickpsecurity10y ago

I was expecting they probably did given what's on the line. Re-reading it, I realize it probably didn't come off that way. Gotta work on that.

steveklabnikOP10y ago

The project lead already said on Reddit that if Dropbox loses data, it's now Rust's fault, so... :)

nickpsecurity10y ago

Oh shit! That's one hell of an endorsement [in the making]. I bet the excitement and suspense are thick in the office, eh? Hope it works out for adoption reasons.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse