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0 pointsfixermark10y ago0 comments

Fundamentally, the biggest problem with the fixed-function model and the vertex-plotting calls in the "red book" is they don't scale. They just don't. :(

There's a reason OpenGL ES threw most of that baby and bathwater out---it's not to diminish the footprint of the library on storage (even in an embedded device, memory's cheap for long-term storage). It's that those function calls are each a stack setup, library operation, stack teardown.... Per function call. You're more-or-less tripling the cost of describing your vertices.

We can ignore that cost on desktop machines (well, we COULD, if people didn't want to play the latest and greatest games in CRYENGINE or what have you ;) ). The cost was not ignorable in time-constrained, power-constrained architectures.

Simpler to reason about, but flatly the wrong solution for performant graphics on a coprocessor.

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xigency10y ago

My argument is not to keep the interfaces and functionality of the OLD pipeline, but to maintain a reasonable, fixed-function shader that is a default out-of-the-box. The most general purpose fragment/vertex shader for drawing a triangle and maybe texturing it is 120 lines top, which actually compiled in the driver would be a couple of hundred bytes. The real cost of not including that feature, or including it in the software library, is preventing new developers from easily experimenting with 3D programming in the browser and on portable devices, which is a fairly large loss of creativity in an emerging area.

datenwolf10y ago

> My argument is not to keep the interfaces and functionality of the OLD pipeline, but to maintain a reasonable, fixed-function shader that is a default out-of-the-box.

There's very little use of such a catch-all shader in a driver. This is a very narrow requirement and only newbies and super simple programs would benefit from it. Providing such a default shader fits more in a companion library like GLU, that could also cover things like image pyramid generation and generating meshes for primitive solids.

xigency10y ago

Well, we have WebGL but we don't have WebGLU.

It's shitty.

That's what I'm saying.

And the worst part about it is that the shaders have to be stored as strings. It's not as if it's possible to write shaders in JavaScript (even though it could be possible), so it's really an outrageous expectation when using WebGL from square one to have to write GLSL shaders inline in this specific language (to put a triangle on the screen). Even streaming them as text resources, there is not an easy way to write or debug a fragment shader in the browser that isn't stroke inducing. In fact, it doesn't seem that there's a reasonable way to do that AT ALL.

Your "very little use" case covers about 10,000 snippets that could be easy to share if they didn't end up looking like this, first result from Google for "Pastebin Webgl": http://pastebin.com/uiHGium5

Compare a decently developed web standard like HTML 5 video: http://pastebin.com/znbHgG3r

Wow, a 40 line demo that is easy to demonstrate.

The whole domain of 3D programming is full of such arrogant programmers that it's no wonder that everything continues to be difficult even 20 years on. It takes expert knowledge. Why even bother using a graphics card or language, when it's trivial for a programmer to write their own software rasterizer? This is obviously how someone should learn to program, if they're going to do it the RIGHT WAY.

Spare me.

xigency10y ago

Or go on beating that dead horse.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

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xigency10y ago

datenwolf10y ago

> My argument is not to keep the interfaces and functionality of the OLD pipeline, but to maintain a reasonable, fixed-function shader that is a default out-of-the-box.

xigency10y ago

Well, we have WebGL but we don't have WebGLU.

It's shitty.

That's what I'm saying.

Compare a decently developed web standard like HTML 5 video: http://pastebin.com/znbHgG3r

Wow, a 40 line demo that is easy to demonstrate.

Spare me.

xigency10y ago

Or go on beating that dead horse.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse