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0 pointsrayiner9y ago0 comments

A history is here: http://digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a....

As for fairness: loser pays disincentivizes bringing lawsuits, whether meritless or meritorious. Under loser pays, certain frivolous lawsuits would not be brought, but meritorious cases that are often uphill battles would not be brought either. If you're in the business of going after polluters (like the Sierra Club), or challenging national security policies (like the EFF), the law is not on your side, even if your cause is just.

As a practical matter, you can't just take the English rule and import it into the U.S. Europe is an "ask for permission first" place, while the U.S. is "ask for forgiveness later." That allows U.S. companies to move faster, but puts the legal system in the position of being a backstop for unsafe products, financial fraud, pollution, unfairness in hiring, etc. So for example, it would be unfair to make it untenable for individuals to bring lawsuits for wrongful termination without giving them the protections against arbitrary dismissal European workers enjoy.[1]

Much of the support for loser-pays in the U.S. is an attempt by businesses to have their cake and eat it too. They don't want plaintiffs lawyers' bringing privacy lawsuits, but they're not exactly clamoring for that system to be replaced with European-style data protection laws administered by regulatory agencies.

[1] Which model is more efficient is debatable. I think in areas where causation is difficult to prove (environmental, product safety, employment discrimination), "ask for permission first" does a better job protecting the public at lower cost. But it also gives tremendous additional power to the government to micromanage the economy.

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smallnamespace9y ago

Thank you for this analysis.

A lot of complaints about the legal system seem centered around particular cases where things seem unfair, but it's important to bear in mind that the legal system as a whole tries to optimize multiple, sometimes-contradictory objectives, and every design choice represents a tradeoff.

* The tradeoff between discouraging frivolous lawsuits vs. discouraging legitimate lawsuits is one case

* Another common complaint is that laws and regulations are complex and inscrutable -- but the tradeoff is that a simpler, shorter law will be more ambiguous and therefore actually less predictable in practice until it's been thoroughly litigated

Sometimes it surprises me that professional software engineers deal with systems design tradeoffs every day in their own work, but then fail to see that systems design logic also applies to human institutions.

johncolanduoni9y ago

> Sometimes it surprises me that professional software engineers deal with systems design tradeoffs every day in their own work, but then fail to see that systems design logic also applies to human institutions.

I think it's because the equilibriums look much worse. Even if your system is a pile of hacks on top of hacks, it might at least be good enough right now. Not to mention that sometimes you engineer something that works pretty well. Meanwhile the legal system often fails even for the exact situations considered when the rules were made, and there's pretty much no one would feel there isn't some gross injustice happening within it quite frequently (though the injustice may vary).

pbhjpbhj9y ago

You could always award reasonable costs to the winner in patent law cases though. You don't have to fix the whole legal system in one go.

Interesting to see you advocate for "ask forgiveness later", one could render that as "if you're rich the legislature is happy as long as you give it a cut". You might as well ditch all corporate application of the law and just increase business taxes, same result but more economical.

rayinerOP9y ago

I'm pretty sure I said: "I think in areas where causation is difficult to prove (environmental, product safety, employment discrimination), 'ask for permission first' does a better job protecting the public at lower cost."

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