Your children, and their children. They're all taken care of.
It's more often a way to say "no accrued vacation". That's important in California, when you leave a job, your employer has to pay out unused and accrued vacation. That can be a big liability to keep on the books, so you can remove it with an unlimited vacation policy.
So it's just an accounting thing.
On top of that, banked vacation is a way to have some funemployment if you get an extra week between leaving on job and starting another. It's basically like taking a vacation anyways.
- It's not used to push us to work more, I don't feel pressure not to take holiday.
- The founders set the example by each taking 2x 2 week holidays a year, plus other days/long weekends here and there.
- Most of the office shuts down for the 1.5-2 weeks over Christmas.
- I've noticed a few people who take a bit more holiday than others, but I don't think they are over-stepping what's reasonable.
- I get much more benefit out of our policy being flexible than unlimited. I've taken holiday at a day's notice before.
There have been situations where it was abused, and those people tend to not last long. In general if your work is getting done well, nobody cares. If you start dropping the ball it becomes a discussion around performance expectations.
As a type A person, it has been hard for me to learn that it is OK, and in fact important, for me to take time off.
What has worked better for me is to use it more as a gradual thing. I might take a day off or work a short day a few times a month. It helps me fit life in, get more rest, and manage stress better because I'm releasing that pressure more frequently than if I waited several months to take a week off.
I still might take longer stretches off, but don't feel any where approaching what I can only describe as desperation for a break I felt at previous jobs.
As a result I'm sure my productivity is higher, and I'm much less interested in fielding the frequent recruiter pitches I get because most of the time I know the companies they are pitching could never offer me something comparable.
If you find a company that implements this policy well, it quickly becomes one of the most valuable parts of your comp package. At a certain point in life the value you place on your free time increases dramatically. So a benefit like this grows in value at the rate for which the value you place on your time increases.
To be a tiny bit fair, this was a tiny company with 3 engineers doing the whole lean startup thing.
I'd say the situation was valuable to learn from because it was apparent (in hindsight) from the first interview how bad the company culture was. So the lesson was if the company seems to be informal and unstructured, one person wearing five hats, Project Manager is also your designer or lead coder etc... (and I realize I just describe a huge number of startups. Use your best judgement).
tl;dr its more likely to be abused by the company than the employee
>> a few people who take a bit more holiday than others, but I don't think they are over-stepping what's reasonable
>> as long as you're being reasonable, and you communicate your intention early enough for deadlines
>> If it is being abused your manager will speak to you about it.
Maybe it is just me but I miss the "unlimited" part of the "unlimited vacation policy". Unlimited is not always reasonable, non-abusive, manager-happy-making. It is unlimited.
For example at my last job I took over a process where my predecessor struggled getting things done and missed deadlines regularly. I am not a genius but too lazy so I automated the hell out of the process so that I only needed 3-4 days a month to accomplish everything on time. With an "unlimited vacation policy" I just could have taken the other 16 days of the month off. But seriously, does this actually happen to anyone? Only if is your business and you are your own boss.
[edit] Hier in Germany it is common to have 30 days holiday a year. Nobody would call it "unlimited" but "not enough".
Biased subjective opinion: no sane person having any other option would work for a start-up. Therefore the start-up employees have worse conditions. My ex-GF had 24 holidays and a 40+8 hour work week (+8 hours for unpaid overtime if necessary).
Its 23 or something along those lines of mandated "days off".
Basically, as long as you're being reasonable, and you communicate your intention early enough for deadlines and staffing to be adjusted accordingly, they're cool with it.
The entire company culture supports a healthy work/life balance and leadership constantly drills it into everyone's head that what's important are results and not work. They also lead by example... my supervisor just took a three week vacation, where he was almost completely out of contact. His projects all slowed down and he had a lot of stuff to catch up on when he got back, but it definitely wasn't frowned upon. If anything, it was encouraged.
It is as good as advertised if used correctly.
They say the same thing about birth control. Yet, real world stats consistently differ markedly from "if used correctly" stats.
When I was working at 5 weeks, I generally average using four weeks a year
We have some departments where everyone takes 4-6 weeks per year, and others where I'm pretty sure only a couple people have been out for longer than a sick day here and there. That's down to the individual managers, I think, and an example of a good way for an unlimited vacation policy to fail. Top brass certainly sets an example of taking plenty of time.
My manager has been on my case lately, encouraging me to take more PTO (I've probably already taken 15 days so far this year, and it'll be close to 25 by Dec 31). The guy who sits on one side of me takes 3-4 day weekends every couple weeks all summer so he can go camping and hiking with his girlfriend. The guy who sits on the other side took two weeks mid-year and that's it. A guy who regularly showed up about 2-3 times per week and worked half days when he did (despite being hired as a full-time employee) was let go.
For me it's better than the last place. 10 days combined PTO minus a medical or family event and one bad cold doesn't even leave you with enough time to take a full week vacation, let alone an additional mental health day here and there. Perfect recipe for burnout.
Here, at the end of a particularly rough stretch, I've learned not to feel the least bit guilty about taking an extra day to recover, or even to do so multiple times in a month. I come back motivated and focused instead of exhausted and resentful, and get more done in 4 good days than I would in 5 miserable ones.
How much vacation people really took varied greatly by managers and which part of the organization you were in.
There were no minimums and no real philosophy or best practices around vacation. The core engineering groups had good managers and people took 4 - 6 weeks (spread over the year) and would completely disconnect from work during their vacations. People could take 2-3 weeks in a row without much fuss being made.
With exception of support, if you were in a customer facing role your manager was probably a workaholic and made it very difficult to take a vacation or even enjoy vacation when you took it. However, they would constantly trot out unlimited vacation as a perk and act like it was your fault for not taking vacation. I knew people who disconnected for a week for the birth of their baby and felt completely unprotected and overwhelmed with backload of work by the time they came back.
I'm never going back to a company with "unlimited" vacation again unless I know the group I report into strongly protects and encourages at least 3+ weeks of vacation
- because people talk about their trips and vacations
- because people are motivated to work ( example, somebody traveling for a month teleworked for a week to not be way out of the loop
- most people take a long weekend, week, and more rarely, 2 weeks at a time.
The biggest concern from Management is that employees feel guilty, aren't taking enough vacation (there isn't a lot of abuse.) Management actively encouraged one of my 2 week vacations to set an example to show people to take vacations.
Does it work as well as it is advertised? From an accounting perspective, yes. From a not worrying about managing people's vacation time yes. From a team management for meetings / projects - not always - more/better notice could work better. From a people perspective? the same people who overwork themselves tend to not take vacations - so not the best for keeping stress down.
I would be lying if I said that even that gets everybody taking 4 weeks off, but the founders have made themselves very clear, so I feel quite safe following the rules and then some.
The development team actually has come up with an (internal to the team) target of 6 weeks. I'll probably be successful in hitting it by the end of the year.
In addition we have most of the holidays off that you'd expect.
Ask HN: Are open vacation policies a scam? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12334926
Otherwise, it's like usual, tell your team in advance and write the days on the calendar.
There is no abuse. If anything, most people don't take enough because it's not accounted for && there is noone to remind them of "you gotta take 10 days before January [or your current quota be lost][and you're gonna burn out because you work too hard]"
So far, its been great. Vacation approval is up to your manager. Ive never had or heard of a request getting denied. People are responsible; it works.
I do wish there was a 2 week minimum policy just on principle, but it wouldn't really change anything.
