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0 pointsTulliusCicero8y ago0 comments

As someone who probably has played at a higher level than you I disagree.

Yes, it's true that mechanics are a large determinant in who wins between people. But pro humans are not easily thrown off by odd or novel strategies or tactics. They can react to things that introduce small wrenches into their build order without serious issues. Players can even adapt to things they've never seen before. The issue with Starcraft is that the state space is so large that it will likely be hard to get an AI that can flexibly and intelligently react to unusual or bizarre things that mess with their build order, because the neural nets will have nothing to account for, say, a mid-game cannon rush, or whatever.

If it was simply a matter of computers taking humans things and executing them better, computers would already be better than humans at Starcraft (there have been plenty of AI competitions using Brood War), but they're not. Not even close.

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littlestymaar8y ago

> But pro humans are not easily thrown off by odd or novel strategies or tactics.

In tournament, with all the inducted stress they definitely do : see Lilbow vs Life in blizzcon 2015, or the whole run of Symbol in Iron Squid one. For BW, see Flash vs Stork in whatever MSL or OSL finals (in 2009 or 2010 I think).

> the neural nets will have nothing to account for, say, a mid-game cannon rush, or whatever.

The AI just need to know how many 2-2 zerglings you need to destroy a cannon in that position (or hydras, or whatever unit it has available around and pick the most cost-effective way to deal with the cannon). The thing is that the AI can deal with this in the most efficient way while perfectly microing two groups of mutalisks and defending against a reaver drop[1].

In fact you don't even need deep learning for that since there's a finite number of encounters like this (cannon vs any unit) and I'm pretty sure some guy on TeamLiquid already covered it in depth :p.

> there have been plenty of AI competitions using Brood War

AI competition featuring matches of AI vs AI are interesting, my point is that AI vs man probably won't.

[1] OK, I'm mixing events really unlikely to occure at the same time but you get the idea.

36bydesign8y ago

He said pros are “not easily” thrown off by novel strategies, not that they are “never” thrown off by such, so your examples are the exceptions that prove the rule.

FWIW I think you also drastically underestimate how many things the AI has to take into account. It isn’t just how many 2-2 zerglings you need to destroy a cannon, it’s making educated guesses of what you’re opponent is doing while you’re attacking the cannons, or how the terrain affects how you can attack, or what units the opponent may have be in the fog of war ready to ambush. Represting all these factors, let alone calculating them, is no trivial task.

knicholes8y ago

I'm pretty sure you're aware that Life has been banned from professional SCII for match fixing, but if not, I just want to throw that in there.

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