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0 pointspavlov8y ago0 comments

The real problem is CSS. Implementing a compliant render engine is nearly impossible, as the spec keeps ballooning and the combinations of inconsistencies and incompatibilities between properties explode.

Check out the size of the latest edition of the book "CSS: The Definitive Guide":

https://twitter.com/meyerweb/status/929097712754098181

Until CSS is replaced by a sane layout system, there's not going to be another web browser engine created by an independent party.

0 comments

gsnedders8y ago

I think Blink's LayoutNG project and Servo both show that you can rewrite your layout implementation (and Servo also having a new style implementation, now in Firefox as Stylo). I think both of those serve as an existence proof that it's doable.

pavlovOP8y ago

It's doable if you already have a large team of experienced web engine development experts, a multi-million budget and years to spend on just planning.

Implementing an open standard shouldn't be like this. Even proprietary formats like PDF are much simpler to implement than CSS.

robocat8y ago

TCP/IP is an open standard, yet I suspect you would have the same problems implementing it (Microsoft famously copied BSD stack at first).

You could probably say the same thing about any complex open standard, like FTP etc.

tptacek8y ago

A minimal, 80% PDF, maybe. A complete PDF? No.

madeofpalk8y ago

It's not doable, part from when it is.

'Open standard' has nothing about something being simple and straight forward. What CSS is trying to do is complicated because of a whole bunch of pragmatic reasons.

Last time a browser tried to 'move things forward', ngate aptly summed it up as

    Google breaks shit instead of doing anything right, as usual.
    Hackernews is instantly pissed off that it is even possible to
    question their heroes, and calls for the public execution of
    anyone who second-guesses the Chrome team

1 more reply

irrational8y ago

Isn't Grid and Flexbox supposed to be that sane layout system? At least that's what I've heard from those who have used them.

infogulch8y ago

Even if Grid and Flexbox are awesome and perfect and the solution to all our problems, they don't make everything else in css suddenly disappear, a new layout/render engine still has to implement every bit of it, quirks included.

woah8y ago

React Native has what seems like a pretty sane css-like layout system. Maybe this could become the basis for a "css-light" standard that could gradually replace the existing css, and offer much faster performance for website authors who opt in.

gsnedders8y ago

I presume parent's point is about how they then interact with other layout modes (what if you absolutely position a flex item, for example), along with the complexity of things that rely on fragmentation (like multicol).

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

gsnedders8y ago

pavlovOP8y ago

It's doable if you already have a large team of experienced web engine development experts, a multi-million budget and years to spend on just planning.

Implementing an open standard shouldn't be like this. Even proprietary formats like PDF are much simpler to implement than CSS.

robocat8y ago

TCP/IP is an open standard, yet I suspect you would have the same problems implementing it (Microsoft famously copied BSD stack at first).

You could probably say the same thing about any complex open standard, like FTP etc.

tptacek8y ago

A minimal, 80% PDF, maybe. A complete PDF? No.

madeofpalk8y ago

It's not doable, part from when it is.

'Open standard' has nothing about something being simple and straight forward. What CSS is trying to do is complicated because of a whole bunch of pragmatic reasons.

Last time a browser tried to 'move things forward', ngate aptly summed it up as

    Google breaks shit instead of doing anything right, as usual.
    Hackernews is instantly pissed off that it is even possible to
    question their heroes, and calls for the public execution of
    anyone who second-guesses the Chrome team

1 more reply

irrational8y ago

Isn't Grid and Flexbox supposed to be that sane layout system? At least that's what I've heard from those who have used them.

infogulch8y ago

woah8y ago

gsnedders8y ago

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse