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0 pointsjernfrost8y ago0 comments

Clanan, to my knowledge this is ALL Trump and the republican's fault. Until 3 weeks ago they could have passed anything they wanted. It is just because they wasted time and Trump sabotaged everything the republicans came up with that so much time passed that they reached a stage where a 60 senate vote was needed.

You can't blame this on democrats when republicans could have handled this exclusively themselves and had ample time to do so.

This is simply a reflection of the chaos that is the Trump administration.

It is ironic to think of how I told Trump voters before the election, that if you vote on that man you will get noting but grid lock politics, because he is not a uniter. He is not a man who seeks cooperation and common ground.

I got laughed at for this, with Trump supporters telling me they didn't need democrats for anything because they controlled both houses.

I guess it is my turn to laugh then. I great irony that they manage to get themselves into this mess. The democrats didn't even have to lift a finger.

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Clanan8y ago

Citations are far more helpful than ranting. If you want a productive conversation, you should provide some. Democratic leaders have made the current budget/CR about DACA, which was not relevant to it. (Ironic because they're in favor of everything in the CR, but they voted against it anyway!) Here's House minority leader Pelosi promising to block any funding that does not include DACA [0]. Yes, the Trump admin could have avoided the shutdown by giving in to minority demands, but that doesn't mean they're at fault, logically.

As for opinions, my political golden rule is "never trust a politician". We're veering far off-topic, though.

Edit: as further evidence of the cause of the shutdown, Senate Minority Leader Schumer just caved. The shutdown was a political gamble for both sides; I'm assuming internal Democrat polling found that they were receiving the most blame. Continuing the disruption would be disastrous. (Obvious, considering they effectively blocked the CHIP children's health insurance.)

[0] http://thehill.com/homenews/house/363778-pelosi-were-not-lea...

Retric8y ago

Government is only funded through Feb. 8 and this reauthorizes the Children’s Health Insurance Program for six years.

So, they got something they wanted all for keeping the government operating for another 2.5 weeks. I would call it a solid democrat win.

Also republicans can pass 1 bill per year without the risk of filibuster and they used/wasted it on their tax bill. Thus, any government shutdown is arguably 100% on them.

Clanan8y ago

You're projecting your politics onto the events. The CR already contained CHIP, and the majority already promised a debate on DACA/immigration back in December. The Democrat leadership promised a shutdown if DACA was not added to the budget/CR. They shutdown, but then reversed almost immediately without DACA being added. No idea how that can be labeled a "solid democrat win" without some severe rationalization.

> Thus, any government shutdown is arguably 100% on them.

Under this logic, all outcomes can be blamed on the majority party in all situations, because tool X was used on Y instead of Z. In a theoretical situation where a supermajority vote fails 59-41, isn't it more logical to blame the failure on the 41 opponents rather than the 59 proponents?

FireBeyond8y ago

How is it in your world view that the Democrats get the blame for this but not the "no" voting Republicans, of which there were a significant number?

Clanan8y ago

Sure, blame them too. If a bill fails, blame everyone who voted against it. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Of course, then you have a situation where politicians (on both sides) will grandstand if the outcome is already decided. For example, if a CR is guaranteed to fail, a moderate Republican will vote against it to appease his base. But if his was the deciding vote, he would vote to pass it to appease his party. Politics...

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ogre_magi8y ago

Senate Democrats initiated the shutdown by opposing the continuing resolution. You can blame Trump if you want, but only in the sense that you could say it's his fault for not giving the Senate Democrats what they wanted.

Tea Party types found rationalizations for why the 2013 shutdown led by Cruz was really Obama's fault, so I'm not surprised #resistance types are blaming Trump.

Taniwha8y ago

What I don't understand is all this fuss about the Democrats having to vote to pay for Trump's wall, after all he promised that Mexico would pay for that, it shouldn't be a sticking point at all

nimos8y ago

Why could they pass anything up until 3 weeks ago? I though filibustering meant the senate always needed 60 votes if the opposing party wants to block the legislation.

telchar8y ago

They could have used the budget reconciliation process to bypass the filibuster. Instead they used their one opportunity this year to do that to get the tax bill passed. If they hadn't insisted on forcing through a (historically unpopular) tax bill, they could have passed a funding bill over any Democratic opposition.

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Clanan8y ago

As for opinions, my political golden rule is "never trust a politician". We're veering far off-topic, though.

[0] http://thehill.com/homenews/house/363778-pelosi-were-not-lea...

Retric8y ago

Government is only funded through Feb. 8 and this reauthorizes the Children’s Health Insurance Program for six years.

So, they got something they wanted all for keeping the government operating for another 2.5 weeks. I would call it a solid democrat win.

Also republicans can pass 1 bill per year without the risk of filibuster and they used/wasted it on their tax bill. Thus, any government shutdown is arguably 100% on them.

Clanan8y ago

> Thus, any government shutdown is arguably 100% on them.

FireBeyond8y ago

How is it in your world view that the Democrats get the blame for this but not the "no" voting Republicans, of which there were a significant number?

Clanan8y ago

Sure, blame them too. If a bill fails, blame everyone who voted against it. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

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ogre_magi8y ago

Tea Party types found rationalizations for why the 2013 shutdown led by Cruz was really Obama's fault, so I'm not surprised #resistance types are blaming Trump.

Taniwha8y ago

What I don't understand is all this fuss about the Democrats having to vote to pay for Trump's wall, after all he promised that Mexico would pay for that, it shouldn't be a sticking point at all

nimos8y ago

Why could they pass anything up until 3 weeks ago? I though filibustering meant the senate always needed 60 votes if the opposing party wants to block the legislation.

telchar8y ago

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