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0 pointsgregmac7y ago0 comments

What's the rationale behind rotating? I've never really understood this. I'm asking this from a fundamental point-of-view: I realize there are policies and standards that require rotation, but I want to know why those policies say that in the first place.

If you have a secret, it's either (potentially) compromised and should be changed immediately, or it's not compromised and thus doesn't need to be changed.

If you're not sure if it's compromised or not, you have an entirely different problem that isn't solved by rotating. Put another way, rotating every 90 days is the equivalent of saying "it's okay if this secret is compromised, because no one can do any damage with it if they only have under 90 days" -- and I can't imagine any situation in which that would be true or acceptable.

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AnimalMuppet7y ago

You seem to be thinking of a detected compromise, which may have compromised secret X, and your response is to change secret X right now. And I think that's the correct response.

But in another sense, all your secrets are potentially compromised, all the time. That is, there are compromises that you don't detect, or don't detect right away. They happen. What should you do? Well, you change the secrets every 90 days, even if you don't (yet) know that they have been compromised, to minimize the damage of a compromise that you don't know about.

But, you may say, by that logic shouldn't we change them every day? Every hour? But the other tradeoff is with annoying your users, wasting peoples' time on changing secrets, wasting time as they have to try to remember today's secret, and all the associated hassle. It's a compromise between better security and better usability.

Is 90 days the right compromise? I don't know.

gregmacOP7y ago

If you're talking about secrets used by users (which isn't what AWS Secrets Manager is used for), that is specifically covered by NIST 800-63B [1] which recommends:

* Do not impose other composition rules (e.g. mixtures of different character types) on memorized secrets.

* Do not require that memorized secrets be changed arbitrarily (e.g., periodically) unless there is a user request or evidence of authenticator compromise. (See Section 5.1.1 for additional information).

There's research [2] backing the idea that these policies actually lower security because of the way users act in response.

Systems don't have these problems, so rotating every few seconds doesn't seem to be a big deal. However, if the secret was compromised and you don't know how, you have to assume that the new secret can also be compromised (via the same mechanism), and at the same time there's no reason to assume that an attacker can't make use of it before the next rotation. Thus the rotation is completely ineffective as a means against this unknown attack, so why bother? The energy would be better spent eliminating potential for unknown, undetected attacks.

[1] https://pages.nist.gov/800-63-3/sp800-63b.html#-1021-memoriz...

[2] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/techftc/2016/03/time-r...

AnimalMuppet7y ago

> The energy would be better spent eliminating potential for unknown, undetected attacks.

Think both/and, not either/or. Yes, work on eliminating unknown, undetected attacks. But you're never going to be perfect at it, so also work on minimizing the damage from undetected attacks. If you're not dealing with human-remembered secrets, sure, go down to rotating every few seconds. By doing so, you make the compromise harder to exploit. Even though you don't make it impossible to exploit, "harder" is still worth doing.

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0 pointsgregmac7y ago0 comments

If you have a secret, it's either (potentially) compromised and should be changed immediately, or it's not compromised and thus doesn't need to be changed.

0 comments

AnimalMuppet7y ago

You seem to be thinking of a detected compromise, which may have compromised secret X, and your response is to change secret X right now. And I think that's the correct response.

Is 90 days the right compromise? I don't know.

gregmacOP7y ago

If you're talking about secrets used by users (which isn't what AWS Secrets Manager is used for), that is specifically covered by NIST 800-63B [1] which recommends:

* Do not impose other composition rules (e.g. mixtures of different character types) on memorized secrets.

There's research [2] backing the idea that these policies actually lower security because of the way users act in response.

[1] https://pages.nist.gov/800-63-3/sp800-63b.html#-1021-memoriz...

[2] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/techftc/2016/03/time-r...

AnimalMuppet7y ago

> The energy would be better spent eliminating potential for unknown, undetected attacks.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse