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53 pointsbgongfu7y ago43 comments

43 comments

Worth noting that ucontext is quite slow (at least on linux): https://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_67_0/libs/context/doc/html/...

newnewpdro7y ago

It's fast enough for many applications.

I think ucontext is an excellent starting point for a general implementation. You just abstract it with a thin veneer and adopt faster implementations as needed where applicable.

bgongfuOP7y ago

It's slower than Boost Context for sure, but still around 10x faster than (ab)using Pthreads on Linux. Until someone releases a faster standalone C library it's still the fastest portable solution for projects like Cixl that can't afford dragging C++ around.

manwe1507y ago

There's already many fast, portable, standalone C libraries for this. For instance, see table 1 of https://www.gnu.org/software/pth/rse-pmt.ps. The assembly code for a context switch is pretty minimal (on most platforms, it's just setjmp and longjmp) if you don't try manage the signal state. I would be surprised if there was significant variance in performance (other than whether it chooses to switch the signal mask). Additionally, many language runtimes directly support it without any extra effort on your part. So if you choose to instead use one of those language, you get a fast portable solution without needing to do any extra work to pick a support library (for example, D-Lang LDC, PyPy, Go, Julia).

2 more replies

backpropaganda7y ago

Slightly OT, but do people know of any good small language which compiles to C? I'm not looking for big languages like C++, Nim, or Rust, but something which is essentially just C, but with some minimal modernization, such as perhaps being able to import modules, and doing away with header files.

bgongfuOP7y ago

Cixl? :)

I realize the Forth & Lisp heritage might be a bit hard on the brain for those who haven't been exposed before, but what you're asking for is otherwise more or less what Cixl is aiming for.

https://github.com/basic-gongfu/cixl#compiling

enriquto7y ago

Wow, cixl is a great thing! I love the Dijkstra quote against complexity that serves as inspiration for the language. However, you find this :

> To build Cixl yourself, you'll need a reasonably modern GCC and CMake installed.

I was very taken aback by this. Really? Why do you really need to depend on the cmake monstrosity? It's just a few lines of C without dependencies that they are distributing!

If there is something about cixl that will scare people is the ridiculous dependence on cmake, not its clean syntax.

2 more replies

sherjilozair7y ago

Yeah, the syntax is pretty out-of-the-world for me, but I'll give it a go. Thanks!

1 more reply

panic7y ago

Ion (https://github.com/pervognsen/bitwise/tree/master/ion) is a relatively new language with round-trippable conversion to C as a design goal.

exikyut7y ago

Ooooh, bitwise looks really interesting...

exikyut7y ago

Hmm. How would you do away with header files in a simple way if you wanted something similarly-scoped to C? Have the compiler vacuum in every source file at once to pick up all references, then discard via dead code elimination? That'd kill incremental compilation :/

(I'm genuinely curious about the answer to this question - I'm also looking for something similar to C)

backpropaganda7y ago

Incremental compilation creates .o files for every compiled .c file, and so it could also create a .h file at the same time (perhaps fused in the .o file).

1 more reply

dom967y ago

Nim is small enough to be used for this purpose. You can easily use it as a nice layer on top of C.

Why do you consider it too big?

backpropaganda7y ago

I haven't looked at Nim in detail, but since Nim does garbage collection, it didn't read to me like a thin layer over C. For instance, is it possible to instantiate a struct on the stack? I'd also have liked the compiled C code to be readable, which if I'm not mistaken, Nim doesn't do.

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steveklabnik7y ago

I think you want Zig!

backpropaganda7y ago

Zig looks amazing! Thank you! While it doesn't compile to C, you read my mind that I actually wanted a C replacement rather than compile to C.

1 more reply

bgongfuOP7y ago

Isn't Zig based on LLVM rather than compiled to C?

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jitl7y ago

Zig explicitly does not depend on the C stdlib

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43 comments

dfbrown7y ago

Worth noting that ucontext is quite slow (at least on linux): https://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_67_0/libs/context/doc/html/...

newnewpdro7y ago

It's fast enough for many applications.

I think ucontext is an excellent starting point for a general implementation. You just abstract it with a thin veneer and adopt faster implementations as needed where applicable.

bgongfuOP7y ago

manwe1507y ago

2 more replies

backpropaganda7y ago

bgongfuOP7y ago

Cixl? :)

I realize the Forth & Lisp heritage might be a bit hard on the brain for those who haven't been exposed before, but what you're asking for is otherwise more or less what Cixl is aiming for.

https://github.com/basic-gongfu/cixl#compiling

enriquto7y ago

Wow, cixl is a great thing! I love the Dijkstra quote against complexity that serves as inspiration for the language. However, you find this :

> To build Cixl yourself, you'll need a reasonably modern GCC and CMake installed.

I was very taken aback by this. Really? Why do you really need to depend on the cmake monstrosity? It's just a few lines of C without dependencies that they are distributing!

If there is something about cixl that will scare people is the ridiculous dependence on cmake, not its clean syntax.

2 more replies

sherjilozair7y ago

Yeah, the syntax is pretty out-of-the-world for me, but I'll give it a go. Thanks!

1 more reply

panic7y ago

Ion (https://github.com/pervognsen/bitwise/tree/master/ion) is a relatively new language with round-trippable conversion to C as a design goal.

exikyut7y ago

Ooooh, bitwise looks really interesting...

exikyut7y ago

(I'm genuinely curious about the answer to this question - I'm also looking for something similar to C)

backpropaganda7y ago

Incremental compilation creates .o files for every compiled .c file, and so it could also create a .h file at the same time (perhaps fused in the .o file).

1 more reply

dom967y ago

Nim is small enough to be used for this purpose. You can easily use it as a nice layer on top of C.

Why do you consider it too big?

backpropaganda7y ago

1 more reply

steveklabnik7y ago

I think you want Zig!

backpropaganda7y ago

Zig looks amazing! Thank you! While it doesn't compile to C, you read my mind that I actually wanted a C replacement rather than compile to C.

1 more reply

bgongfuOP7y ago

Isn't Zig based on LLVM rather than compiled to C?

1 more reply

jitl7y ago

Zig explicitly does not depend on the C stdlib

1 more reply

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