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0 pointsdaly7y ago0 comments

Anger? I am not, nor did I intend to come across as, angry. I'm just passing along interview advice.

As for the myth of "world class salaries" I know, for example, that my nephew who works at one of the Top 5 companies, has a salary that is higher than I ever made. But he also lives near the company and has to share the rent with 4 other "world class salary" colleagues because he can't afford an apartment. I used to work in NYC with a "world class salary". One place I looked at to rent was $2000/month... which was a couch in the living room behind a japanese screen and kitchen privileges. Salary is relative (as in, it helps to have a relative with a basement apartment).

I've been to Google. What I saw was a large area of desks with no partitions, a literal sea of "the best and brightest". A historically accurate counterpart might be https://bakethiscake.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/sewing-room...

However, the coffee is fresh and free. The sleeping pods are available. Laundry and haircuts can be had onsite. The food is first class and available for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. There is, in fact, no valid reason to leave the building. It's almost like working from home.

If you're fresh out of college and just passed your data structures final you probably can quote the order of an algorithm off the top of your head. If you hate your current job enough to put up with anything, sure do the whiteboarding. I certainly have done it. I'm not above it for some jobs. If you don't mind travelling to a location and talking to people who have no idea what you might do, why you're there, or who you might report to, then go for it. If you're being laid off and need a new job in a hurry, go for it. If you're not confident in your abilities as a professional, go for it.

But if you're job shopping and looking for a company that respects you as a professional, give some thought to the interview process. That process is dictated by management so it is a direct representation of how management views you. If you are considering a job change and looking at other companies, look carefully at what is being presented.

I've had bad interviews that were directly with the hiring managers. But at least I was pretty sure that I was turned down because they didn't need or didn't want what I could do for them. And I didn't have to remember that Coopersmith-Winograd is O(n^2.375477).

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monksy7y ago

I used to say this about the whiteboards. Then came the take home tests.

dalyOP7y ago

Send your architect home to build a rocking chair over his weekend. See if he calls you back on Monday.

A take home test is a very clear statement by management that your time is less important than their process.

As a professional, you only have your time and skill as your saleable assets. You have the choice of giving them away for free. You could, of course, take the test and then present them a bill for your services.

Another interesting question to ask would be: "How many of your senior management were hired as programmers who passed a whiteboard test or a take home test?" Clearly, according to the market myth, those who did pass were "the best and the brightest". It only stands to reason that upper management is composed of programmers.

Ball-pits are in plain sight, if you choose to see. Ball-pit companies who whiteboard and use take home tests are also in plain sight, if you choose to see beyond the "best and brightest" market hype.

I really respected a Lisp legendary programmer, Daniel Weinreb. He worked at ITA software on airline reservation software. We had many discussions. I'd love to have worked with him. But ITA has the same testing game and I couldn't convince myself to bother. I'm certain I could pass their tests. I've been programming in Lisp since the 1970s. And ITA was a 5-star restaurant kind of company. But those tests are a "Clown-Nose" warning to me. I just walked away.

Walking away has a cost. But so does management games like quarterly status reviews, yearly performance reviews, monthly reports, 1 to 5 rating scales, etc. Clueless management does things like make a rating scale of 1 to 5 and then fires the 5 performers. They have never heard of the Deming Prize (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deming_Prize), and never bothered to learn what Deming makes painfully obvious. You really should watch Demings Red Bead test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckBfbvOXDvU

Ball-pits and Clown-noses are a sure sign that managers are not well trained, indeed that they are not themselves professional managers.

drstewart7y ago

You keep comparing developers to architects, doctors, accountants, and lawyers without realizing there's a huge difference between the latter and the former: licensing. That makes all the difference, my friend.

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