undefined | Better HN

0 pointsphyller7y ago0 comments

It boggles my mind that salaries can be so much lower in parts of Europe, while expenses are about the same as the US. Of course if you are living in New York City or San Francisco area expenses are higher, but most places they are not.

0 comments

apexalpha7y ago

As always: it's not that Black and White.

Many people in my country, and NW Europe in general, opt for pay in another currency: time.

Dutch people work _on average_ 350 hours less per year than their US counterparts; or about 7 weeks worth when working 40 hours a week.

It's not unheard of in my company to have between 30 and 50 paid days off per year on top of the national holidays. These days are negotiated during salary discussions and a trade off between pay and time.

https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm

Germany, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, Sweden etc... We all basically opt for more time off than more pay.

And this is possible in part due to the high taxes; we have no medical bills, no education bills, pension is taken care of, etc..

I for one, would gladly opt for a 4 day work week with 60k pay a year in stead of a 5 day workweek with 90k pay.

phyllerOP7y ago

I hear this a lot, but you can do the same thing in the US with a much higher salary. I have taken 4 to 5 weeks off in a year, plus two weeks of national holidays, with no pay cut at all. You can negotiate for more. US companies will pay for your healthcare basically completely (your entire family), and contribute towards continuing education and your retirement accounts.

Granted, that doesn't continue after you stop working for them, but we do have federal government provided money and medical coverage after retirement age. I think people have a caricature of what the US system is because as Americans we have a culture of complaining about our government, which I usually wholeheartedly participate in :)

The bottom line is, in my opinion, if you like your particular culture, you will be happier where you are because it won't be replicated quite the same anywhere else. But the overall standard of living for software engineers in the United States is extremely high. Even when people are complaining about housing prices, they aren't much higher than in Europe, and you get a really nice living space for it that is usually much larger with nicer amenities. And in many places in the US, including where I live, the prices are cheaper and I get a nice big house with land and a beautiful view.

apexalpha7y ago

I understand and I agree with you for the most part. My response was to the "It boggles my mind that salaries can be so much lower in parts of Europe" comment above me.

Software Engineers definitely get paid more in the US than in the EU. But some of the difference can be explained by it. Although I don't think software engineers in either country have much to complain about.

That being said, these perks that I listed go for everyone in the country, not just the top % of all working people. In one form or another this is paid for by people who can, like software engineers.

p.s. 4 weeks is the legal minimum amount of vacation days here. Most people have double that.

a_imho7y ago

On average means very little, especially across all positions considered. Also, in software it is very easy to bill hours, it very loosely correlates to productivity, which I don't think particularly varies that much across nationalities (and in my experience Americans like to overstate their work ethic as if working overtime is a badge of honor)

Nevertheless 350/40 = 8.75, but it is still far from covering the wage disparity.

I for one, would gladly report an extra hour each day for a 50-500% boost in my salary.

apexalpha7y ago

I know it says little, but don't have any stats comparing just IT jobs. This was the best I could do and I think it does get the message across.

The more vacation / paid days off per year definitely doesn't cover the (entire) wage disparity. But it helps. I don't know many Americans that get every 2nd Friday off (36hours workweek) while it is commonplace in NL, as well as simply taking August off by default.

I'm not saying salaries in the US aren't higher. They are! But I just hope my explanation covers some of the "mind boggling" part of how European salaries are lower.

C1sc0cat7y ago

You should be getting 72k for a 4 day week.

pavlov7y ago

Even the big companies do this. My employer is a FANG and I'm based in London. Rents are nearly as expensive as in San Francisco... But if I moved to Silicon Valley, I'd get 40% more base pay for the same work.

The only justification for this policy is something called "cost of labor" — in other words: "We've agreed with other tech companies that nobody's going to raise salaries locally."

phyllerOP7y ago

I think the best of all possibilities is move to silicon valley, get a high paying job, earn the confidence of those around you with good work and communication skills, then go remote and fight to keep the same salary. Then live wherever you want.

This can be done, people are doing it.

C1sc0cat7y ago

Nearly I would have said London is more expensive than SF

a_imho7y ago

Geographic location is not a protected class, it is not discrimination but considered smart business to pay as little as possible.

https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...

https://m.signalvnoise.com/how-we-pay-people-at-basecamp-f1d...

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

apexalpha7y ago

As always: it's not that Black and White.

Many people in my country, and NW Europe in general, opt for pay in another currency: time.

Dutch people work _on average_ 350 hours less per year than their US counterparts; or about 7 weeks worth when working 40 hours a week.

https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm

Germany, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, Sweden etc... We all basically opt for more time off than more pay.

And this is possible in part due to the high taxes; we have no medical bills, no education bills, pension is taken care of, etc..

I for one, would gladly opt for a 4 day work week with 60k pay a year in stead of a 5 day workweek with 90k pay.

phyllerOP7y ago

apexalpha7y ago

I understand and I agree with you for the most part. My response was to the "It boggles my mind that salaries can be so much lower in parts of Europe" comment above me.

p.s. 4 weeks is the legal minimum amount of vacation days here. Most people have double that.

a_imho7y ago

Nevertheless 350/40 = 8.75, but it is still far from covering the wage disparity.

I for one, would gladly report an extra hour each day for a 50-500% boost in my salary.

apexalpha7y ago

I know it says little, but don't have any stats comparing just IT jobs. This was the best I could do and I think it does get the message across.

I'm not saying salaries in the US aren't higher. They are! But I just hope my explanation covers some of the "mind boggling" part of how European salaries are lower.

C1sc0cat7y ago

You should be getting 72k for a 4 day week.

pavlov7y ago

The only justification for this policy is something called "cost of labor" — in other words: "We've agreed with other tech companies that nobody's going to raise salaries locally."

phyllerOP7y ago

This can be done, people are doing it.

C1sc0cat7y ago

Nearly I would have said London is more expensive than SF

a_imho7y ago

Geographic location is not a protected class, it is not discrimination but considered smart business to pay as little as possible.

https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...

https://m.signalvnoise.com/how-we-pay-people-at-basecamp-f1d...

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse