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0 pointsthaumasiotes7y ago0 comments

> Full-blown lexical tone, at least in some cases, seems to develop as the result of reinterpreting tonal correlates of some other phenomenon

I would have said that the "I don't know" sequence matches this description -- it's just the tonal contour of the original phrase, with the other details stripped out. I don't see how that differs from Punjabi syllables preserving their (originally) allophonic tone while losing their (originally) phonemic aspiration, such that the tone becomes phonemic.

> I wonder if that's really the only item of that type in English.

Obviously I can't guarantee that, but I think it's pretty likely for several reasons:

- I can't think of anything similar.

- The yes/no question answers (including the "I don't know" sequence) are a clear conceptual group and differ from normal English in a few ways. The "no", "uh-uh", is also (I conjecture) unique, being the only English lexical item to contain a phonemic glottal stop. (Plenty of English words feature an obligatory glottal stop, but that stop is allophonic, as when the /t/ of "kitten" is transformed into a glottal stop by the /n/ that follows it.) It is of interest that the only phonemic glottal stop and the only phonemic tone should occur in these two closely related words. I strongly suspect that this group of answer words has these unusual features because of the constraint that you can pronounce them without opening your mouth.

- It's a single word that contains a lot more information than one English word should. For the Latin word "nescio" to mean "I don't know" is unsurprising; all Latin verbs are marked with subject agreement and in the case of a first person subject that is generally the only subject marking. English subject marking is almost always mandatory. This is just more evidence that the tone sequence is quite different from normal words.

- English has a non-vestigial system of grammatical tone at the sentence level; tonal marking is obligatory for yes/no questions. But sentence-level grammatical tone can't really coexist with lexical tone. So I'd be very surprised to see other instances of lexical tone outside very special cases. (For example, the phrase "I don't know" can't ever be a yes/no question, and so can't conflict with the English interrogative tone.)

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_emacsomancer_7y ago

> it's just the tonal contour of the original phrase, with the other details stripped out. I don't see how that differs from Punjabi syllables preserving their (originally) allophonic tone while losing their (originally) phonemic aspiration, such that the tone becomes phonemic.

because, as you elaborate, the English example you mention is really isolated - it's not enough to spawn a system of tone. Even in this case (the "I don't know" sequence), the tone isn't really contrastive.

> the phrase "I don't know" can't ever be a yes/no question

Sure it can, though the contexts wouldn't be that frequent. And some speakers have final rising tone even on non-yes/no questions.

> English has a non-vestigial system of grammatical tone at the sentence level

And of course there's more than just question-associated tone, there's also focus-associated tonal prosody.

thaumasiotesOP7y ago

> Even in this case (the "I don't know" sequence), the tone isn't really contrastive.

It's not contrastive in that there is no minimal pair that would demonstrate it. But good luck being understood if you don't produce it correctly. The lesson I would draw here is more "minimal pairs aren't sufficient to demonstrate every phoneme" than "it's not a phoneme until a minimal pair exists".

> the English example you mention is really isolated - it's not enough to spawn a system of tone

I didn't claim and don't believe that English is developing lexical tones. But I do believe that the development of lexical tone in this single unusual word is fundamentally similar to the larger-scale development of tone in other languages, and that the still-obvious relationship between the phrase and the tone sequence makes this a good example to help English speakers understand how it can happen.

> And of course there's more than just question-associated tone, there's also focus-associated tonal prosody.

Very true, but much harder to describe.

_emacsomancer_7y ago

> The lesson I would draw here is more "minimal pairs aren't sufficient to demonstrate every phoneme" than "it's not a phoneme until a minimal pair exists".

Perhaps. (Minimal pairs are, of course, simply a diagnostic tool.) It would be a pretty unproductive phoneme though.

> I didn't claim and don't believe that English is developing lexical tones. But I do believe that the development of lexical tone in this single unusual word is fundamentally similar to the larger-scale development of tone in other languages, and that the still-obvious relationship between the phrase and the tone sequence makes this a good example to help English speakers understand how it can happen.

I'm not deeply versed in tonogenesis - but that is interesting as a potential source (phrasal tone). I wonder what conditions could lead to phrase-related tonal patterns becoming prominent/frequent enough to be a source of more prototypical lexical tone.

> > And of course there's more than just question-associated tone, there's also focus-associated tonal prosody.

> Very true, but much harder to describe.

It's been discussed fairly extensively though, at least as far back as Jackendoff (1972 or thereabouts).

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0 pointsthaumasiotes7y ago0 comments

> Full-blown lexical tone, at least in some cases, seems to develop as the result of reinterpreting tonal correlates of some other phenomenon

> I wonder if that's really the only item of that type in English.

Obviously I can't guarantee that, but I think it's pretty likely for several reasons:

- I can't think of anything similar.

0 comments

_emacsomancer_7y ago

> the phrase "I don't know" can't ever be a yes/no question

Sure it can, though the contexts wouldn't be that frequent. And some speakers have final rising tone even on non-yes/no questions.

> English has a non-vestigial system of grammatical tone at the sentence level

And of course there's more than just question-associated tone, there's also focus-associated tonal prosody.

thaumasiotesOP7y ago

> Even in this case (the "I don't know" sequence), the tone isn't really contrastive.

> the English example you mention is really isolated - it's not enough to spawn a system of tone

> And of course there's more than just question-associated tone, there's also focus-associated tonal prosody.

Very true, but much harder to describe.

_emacsomancer_7y ago

> The lesson I would draw here is more "minimal pairs aren't sufficient to demonstrate every phoneme" than "it's not a phoneme until a minimal pair exists".

Perhaps. (Minimal pairs are, of course, simply a diagnostic tool.) It would be a pretty unproductive phoneme though.

> > And of course there's more than just question-associated tone, there's also focus-associated tonal prosody.

> Very true, but much harder to describe.

It's been discussed fairly extensively though, at least as far back as Jackendoff (1972 or thereabouts).

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