undefined | Better HN

0 pointsfock6y ago0 comments

And while your comments are valid, a large part of your comments are actual FUD, because every other chat application out there behaves the same (and for a large portion of the user base, matrix probably is just yet another chat app...)?!?

Especially your ongoing notion of metadata as private information which should be hidden is funny: how do you intend to do that? Short of wrapping your application into Tor (which seriously impacts performance letting your average family member happily pass it), I can't think of any method not including any BS-Bingo (how about a blockchain...).

I agree that the vector.im-identity service seems really unnecessary and it reminds of Mozillas approach to sync (yeaah, the ones with your cited manifesto cough); still, I was well aware that this means regularly contacting this server and probably also checking my contacts DB against it (as well as having metadata on my browser, like every other website + it's 23 ad-networks, uuh)? Also for anyone interested in actually hosting a server it's really spelled out plainly, that this is a measure for convenience and you can still host your own server – btw: did you ever try to integrate federation into syndent (you might show the world your archived Issue/PR...).

The part about the integration server is indeed worrying (but not you, putting at the end?!?) because without it, I don't really see the value proposition of matrix compared to plain old XMPP (and I wonder how you intend to monetize on kamax...). And I wasn't really aware of it...

The other parts

- I didn't give an eMail, wasn't a problem for me and I'm seriously not imaging any way to resolve this w/o aforementioned BS-bingo or yet another personal information (private/public key, which is beyond scope for most people + creates its own set of problems (people with unencrypted keys on their machines...)

- so the only way for matrix to read messages is by adding a bot? can the scalar.vector.im server initiate that too? otherwise your claim that vector.im can read all your messages is just BS

- you never mention that encryption by default would be cool. How will kamax.io handle this?

0 comments

maxidorius6y ago

The document does not try to compare other chat applications with Riot. It does not try to say what is good or bad. We simply take how Riot is presented and understood by non-technical people, and see if its behaviour matches what they understood it does in terms of privacy. There was a mismatch, and people asked to know what was shared without their consent or understanding: we wrote it down.

We did the next best thing after improving sydent: we wrote our own implementation of an Identity server: mxisd. We linked it several times in the doc. You should give it a look. That's one example of how you can be better at privacy.

If the content of the document does not surprise you, and you were fully aware of all that was going on, it is also a win! Sadly, this is not our experience with the many users we came in contact with. They did not know, but wanted to know in details.

We do not mention End-to-End encryption would be cool indeed because it would not change what is happening here. In Matrix, the encryption would only cover the content of the event, but not its metadata (sender, source, timestamp, etc.). The document is clear that the vast majority of the leaks are around metadata (who sent what, who did what, when, from where) and not data itself (the message itself).

This document only scratches the surface of privacy in Matrix, by being specific to Matrix.org and its choice of recommended software. It gets worse as we start investigating the protocol itself. It is your choice to see this as FUD. It does not make it less true, and while you might not care, some do. We published the document for those who care and do not have the means, time or capacity to do such a research themselves.

fockOP6y ago

Oh yeah I get that you are not comparing with anything else, because then your criticism wouldn't be on matrix but on how about 99% of the internet today work _by design_. With any protocol, where you are expecting any reliable, low-latency 2-way communication, each partner will know about the other, you won't work around that anytime soon. What you can work around is the number/mass of the partner which is acting as your always-on messaging relay, eventually trading convenience for privacy - I agree that vector/riot is not looking too good on this, but I don't see how they're not clear on it/working towards eventual resolution of this problems. One can argue whether this should be the first priority or an afterthought but I've grudgingly accepted the latter being standard today (just look at all those leaky SaaS-apps on hn...).

For the perception/expectations of average Joe on privacy/obscurity on the internet I recommend you read the recurring threads on any platform whenever there is a new "scandal" centered on whatsapp (europe): half of your commenters will just tell you that they are gonna use Telegram (yeah, the ones, where you don't know exactly whose behind and which think that encrypted group chat is too much of a hassle).

Regarding your comments that the protocol is broken, I'm really surprised how you are intending to tackle this? Why the hell are you using the very same protocol which is driven by a body which you claim intransparent and non-cooperative? If all your allegiations are true you would have been better of rolling your own/your software won't be compatible for long if you take your own writing seriously...

P.S.: care to elaborate who's "we"? Your projects have a surprisingly low number of contributors (which hopefully changes now), so I can't really figure out, why you are not just saying "I". Also don't know what's so bad on taking a stand in a civilized public discussion (if "we" decided to be anonymous)?

9935c101ab17a666y ago

> Oh yeah I get that you are not comparing with anything else, because then your criticism wouldn't be on matrix but on how about 99% of the internet today work _by design_.

You want to quite a length to work in this irrelevant slight.

I don't know enough about the design/implementation and the overall context to add anything of technical value to conversation and I won't even try. I would, however, like to point out that both your 'tone' and 'demeanour' come across as incredibly hostile and unnecessarily personal.

Also, dismissing a possibly valid criticism or review of something because it doesn't present immediate solutions to the problems highlighted doesn't mean the criticism itself has no worth, and to discount it out of hand for this reason is folly.

fockOP6y ago

The P.S. is unnecessarily personal, I won't edit it but hereby apologize for the harsh tone.

Other than that I suppose this is personal, since this seems to be the personal pet project of the author (and he constantly assumes a "we" as if multiple people were signing his rant).

And if you read my comments carefully, I never critizise the lack of solutions. My critic relies on the fact that he starts with very clickbaity "facts" which are then elaborated assuming that average joe is running his own homeserver and not knowing the tradeoffs of it. He then happily mixes up problems of any non-TOR messenger (of which matrix.org matrix is one...) and specific problems of running a matrix-homeserver with the recommended settings, using the vector.im phonebook (and apparently a bunch of these settings are bugs...).

Such as it stands, this is convoluted FUD. If he wanted to make a constructive contribution he might as well have stated the problems upfront (the current working matrix implementation relies on proprietary/centralized services) and then gone into a discussion of every problem step-by-step (and advertizing the very solutions he tries to sell). The problems of matrix/vector/riot are as real as Mozilla pivoting to the Firefox Service Company and integrating a host of proprietary tools, but the problem has deserved better than this rant...

olliej6y ago

iMessage does not upload your contacts. Don’t claim that uploading/traversing someone’s contact dB is necessary. You only ever need to do a directory lookup when someone messages another person.

rasengan6y ago

BitMessage absolutely obfuscates the metadata FYI.

fockOP6y ago

from wikipedia

> Bitmessage was conceived by software developer Jonathan Warren, who based its design on the decentralized digital currency, bitcoin.

So, looks like "blockchain"? Anyone else?

From the FAQ: https://bitmessage.org/wiki/FAQ

> On average it should take 8 minutes from the time you click the send button to the time you receive a response.

Whew. Privacy really costs.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

maxidorius6y ago

fockOP6y ago

9935c101ab17a666y ago

> Oh yeah I get that you are not comparing with anything else, because then your criticism wouldn't be on matrix but on how about 99% of the internet today work _by design_.

You want to quite a length to work in this irrelevant slight.

fockOP6y ago

The P.S. is unnecessarily personal, I won't edit it but hereby apologize for the harsh tone.

Other than that I suppose this is personal, since this seems to be the personal pet project of the author (and he constantly assumes a "we" as if multiple people were signing his rant).

olliej6y ago

iMessage does not upload your contacts. Don’t claim that uploading/traversing someone’s contact dB is necessary. You only ever need to do a directory lookup when someone messages another person.

rasengan6y ago

BitMessage absolutely obfuscates the metadata FYI.

fockOP6y ago

from wikipedia

> Bitmessage was conceived by software developer Jonathan Warren, who based its design on the decentralized digital currency, bitcoin.

So, looks like "blockchain"? Anyone else?

From the FAQ: https://bitmessage.org/wiki/FAQ

> On average it should take 8 minutes from the time you click the send button to the time you receive a response.

Whew. Privacy really costs.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse