NetBSD on the last G4 Mac mini and making the kernel power failure proof (opens in new tab)

(tenfourfox.blogspot.com)

125 pointsUkiahSmith6y ago40 comments

40 comments

For those who are not familiar with the author of this blog, he is a PowerPC enthusiast and the maintainer of TenFourFox, a Firefox port to PPC OS X. He's also currently working on a new PPC JIT for (modern) Firefox on Linux (a project for which he is looking for volunteers to assist him[1]) to bring it to speed parity with Chrome on PPC (which already has a PPC JIT).

[1] https://www.talospace.com/2019/03/pitch-into-firefox-jit.htm...

jchw6y ago

I just picked up a G4 iBook and am grateful for TenFourFox. Combined with uBlock Origin legacy builds, it’s actually usable for some modern sites, which is pretty impressive.

classichasclass6y ago

Author here. Thanks for the kind word. :)

MuffinFlavored6y ago

Why the obsession with PPC? Don't you feel you could put your time + effort into something more modern that isn't dying?

4 more replies

krackers6y ago

Do you mean webkit on ppc (since I searched but couldn't find a chrome port)

MrRadar6y ago

There is a community Chromium port to PPC Linux[1]. Modern PPC Linux distros should have it in their repositories. So far Google has not accepted the patches to enable PPC support upstream[2].

[1] https://wiki.raptorcs.com/wiki/Porting/Chromium

[2] https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/chrom...

dillonmckay6y ago

What is the last supported OS X version for PowerPC processors?

IntelMiner6y ago

10.5.8 "Leopard"

mikece6y ago

Somewhere there are chip designers thinking they can create the first processor on which NetBSD cannot run. Have fun kids: many have tried that and failed!

verisimilitudes6y ago

Not every chip mimics a PDP-11 or can be made to resemble one. Chuck Moore's GA144 is an array of his F18A Forth chips, which are all rather small and simple stack machines that support such fine grained operations as looping the instructions that share a machine word.

Given that this is a heavily segmented machine, with very different primitive operations than a PDP-11, and also has a word size of eighteen, I don't imagine C would run very well on it at all, if you even wanted to try.

So, there you have it.

Dylan168076y ago

I'd say that the stack machine in the GA144 is feasible to compile normal C to. And the 18-bit word is barely a problem. But the (complete lack of) memory architecture is a clear dealbreaker. There's no compiling a normal C program down to an architecture that has 64 words of RAM. At best you can gang a few cores together to make an emulator for a simple virtual machine.

quickben6y ago

Mill architecture?

rjsw6y ago

Maybe. NetBSD doesn't have an equivalent of the nommu variant of Linux.

oneplane6y ago

As fun as this is (and as much as I appreciate putting good old hardware to use and as much as I like PPC): the power consumption alone wouldn't make this a winner :(

I have a PowerBook G4 DVI, iBook G4, B&W G3, GbE G4, Dual G5 here, I want to get rid of them but I like them too much. Yet I can't run them for fun all day long either because the amount of power they eat >:( The problems of a hardware connoisseur.

classichasclass6y ago

Author here. Power consumption on this unit is about 21W.

Is the CPU/watt ratio less than later units? You bet. But it's not bad, it's free, it's not in a landfill, and it's more than enough grunt for the basic tasks it's doing.

oneplane6y ago

Yeah, those Mac Minis can go quite low. But still the CPU power from any PPC vs. an ARM or low-end x86 is a bit inverted. A low-end ARM or x86 that is faster than any of the PPCs while using less than half the power (in the 1W to 8W range) does make a dent.

dvdbloc6y ago

I have the same problem with two G5 Xserves. They’re just too cool to get rid of.

oneplane6y ago

Yeah, same problem here with some older Xeon Xserves. Still running (but Linux and Xen at this point). Without macOS you lose the cool CPU LED indicators at the front, but you still have everything else, including IPMI. They are way too neat to get rid of, specially when they still run (which for this 1U deal is fine because the power cost is fixed anyway).

WWLink6y ago

o_O Compared to what? G3s and G4s are pretty light on power usage - IIRC they use around 10-15w? The G3s were even less.

The i7 in my desktop uses at least 95w, and some reviews suggest it's more like 140w lol.

Edit: Unless you're pairing them with CRT monitors...

oneplane6y ago

Compared to say.. a 1W ARM CPU. Those are faster and use less energy.

1 more reply

microcolonel6y ago

The fire extinguisher on the desk is a nice touch; though I'm not sure that's enough volume to extinguish a G4 fire.

giobox6y ago

I don’t recall the G4 PowerPC designs being unusually hot running by standards of the day? The G5 was of course, but it was much worse in this regard than the G4.

reaperducer6y ago

Yeah, the G5 was a scorcher. But I remember my G4 laptops turning my thighs red, too.

tomxor6y ago

As an owner of both G4 and G3 laptops, I can assure you, eggs will fry given the right task... The G3 was actually worse.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

40 comments

MrRadar6y ago

[1] https://www.talospace.com/2019/03/pitch-into-firefox-jit.htm...

jchw6y ago

I just picked up a G4 iBook and am grateful for TenFourFox. Combined with uBlock Origin legacy builds, it’s actually usable for some modern sites, which is pretty impressive.

classichasclass6y ago

Author here. Thanks for the kind word. :)

MuffinFlavored6y ago

Why the obsession with PPC? Don't you feel you could put your time + effort into something more modern that isn't dying?

4 more replies

krackers6y ago

Do you mean webkit on ppc (since I searched but couldn't find a chrome port)

MrRadar6y ago

There is a community Chromium port to PPC Linux[1]. Modern PPC Linux distros should have it in their repositories. So far Google has not accepted the patches to enable PPC support upstream[2].

[1] https://wiki.raptorcs.com/wiki/Porting/Chromium

[2] https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/chrom...

dillonmckay6y ago

What is the last supported OS X version for PowerPC processors?

IntelMiner6y ago

10.5.8 "Leopard"

mikece6y ago

Somewhere there are chip designers thinking they can create the first processor on which NetBSD cannot run. Have fun kids: many have tried that and failed!

verisimilitudes6y ago

So, there you have it.

Dylan168076y ago

quickben6y ago

Mill architecture?

rjsw6y ago

Maybe. NetBSD doesn't have an equivalent of the nommu variant of Linux.

oneplane6y ago

As fun as this is (and as much as I appreciate putting good old hardware to use and as much as I like PPC): the power consumption alone wouldn't make this a winner :(

classichasclass6y ago

Author here. Power consumption on this unit is about 21W.

Is the CPU/watt ratio less than later units? You bet. But it's not bad, it's free, it's not in a landfill, and it's more than enough grunt for the basic tasks it's doing.

oneplane6y ago

dvdbloc6y ago

I have the same problem with two G5 Xserves. They’re just too cool to get rid of.

oneplane6y ago

WWLink6y ago

o_O Compared to what? G3s and G4s are pretty light on power usage - IIRC they use around 10-15w? The G3s were even less.

The i7 in my desktop uses at least 95w, and some reviews suggest it's more like 140w lol.

Edit: Unless you're pairing them with CRT monitors...

oneplane6y ago

Compared to say.. a 1W ARM CPU. Those are faster and use less energy.

1 more reply

microcolonel6y ago

The fire extinguisher on the desk is a nice touch; though I'm not sure that's enough volume to extinguish a G4 fire.

giobox6y ago

I don’t recall the G4 PowerPC designs being unusually hot running by standards of the day? The G5 was of course, but it was much worse in this regard than the G4.

reaperducer6y ago

Yeah, the G5 was a scorcher. But I remember my G4 laptops turning my thighs red, too.

tomxor6y ago

As an owner of both G4 and G3 laptops, I can assure you, eggs will fry given the right task... The G3 was actually worse.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse