In particular, I've used a Fine nib Twisbi Eco (~$30) for multiple years now as my main pen, and I consider it to be one of the better purchases I've ever made. It's cheap enough that I can throw it into a bag or my pocket alongside my keys without worrying too much about it getting scratched or stolen, but it still looks reasonably nice, writes beautifully, holds a ton of ink, and is just a joy to use. There are cheaper pens out there, but I really like having a piston-fill pen, and I think it's just a really good quality, versatile, fun line -- there are even a lot of different color options.
I can describe mechanically why a fountain pen feels good, but I can't really convey how it feels. The best thing I can say is that it takes something that's very mundane (writing) and it makes it feel a tiny bit more pleasurable and 'extravagant' (for lack of a better word). I write a lot, I fill notebooks with handwritten notes. With a fountain pen, it just feels good to write. My handwriting has improved a lot, particularly my cursive -- I suspect in part because I pay more attention to what I'm writing. It's easy to take care of, but it feels good to occasionally wash it out and switch to a new ink color. It feels nice to use permanent things.
I've seen a few people talking about avoiding fountain pen ink even in the rollerballs because they dissolve in water. On that note I will swear by Noodler's Black Waterproof ink. I've completely submerged and soaked pages that I wrote on with that ink, and not only does it not dissolve, it does not even smudge. It's really crazy. One of the really nice things about fountain pens is that there's such a wide variety of colors and styles and glitters, and it just adds to this feeling of making your handwriting feel more expressive and personal. It makes total sense to me that rollerball users would want to be able to use the same ink.
But for beginners I would only recommend the Pilot Metropolitan, coming at ~$19 with fancy metal body and high quality Pilot nib. That pen is insane bang for your buck and will last years.
The Pilot Metro is often recommended as a beginner pen, but I’m not sure if it ought to be. The F is a little scratchy even on Rhodia Premium paper.
In retrospect, I would have saved the $15 and paid $30 for a TWSBI Eco F. That said, there is a mental barrier to paying $30 for a pen, especially for beginners who are just testing out the waters. On the other hand, the Pilot Metro doesn’t really adequately represent the true pleasures of writing with a fountain pen—-it gives one glimpses but falls short of a full experience.
P.s. pen enthusiasts should check out the upcoming Chicago Pen Show. Yes, there’s a trade show for pens.
Honestly, my writing fatigue has gone way down since I switched back to fountain pens years ago. The fact I don't have to press hard, and can control stroke width etc. with very light pressure changes has meant I can write longer (and neater) nowadays.
I still use my Pilot pens for everyday note taking etc. and for carrying around, as I don't mind if I lose one. I reserve my good pens for writing in my journals or ideas book when at home.
I got the TWSBI Go first before the Eco, because of the push the plunger to fill with ink, I would put it high for beginners also at a $19 price point and holds a lot of ink.
Certainly if you spill it on your clothes, there is probably nothing reasonable you can do to ever get rid of that stain. Presumably that's the desired effect from a waterproof ink anyway though -- you don't want it to be removable.
I'm still very much a pen noob though - I just like vivid ink and not having a cramp after half an hour of steady writing.
The comments in this thread lead me to the wikipedia article for rollerball pens, which mentions the ink being the main reason the pens require less pressure to write and therefore produce less stress on the hand.
Either way, I love Muji pens and Muji pads. Finding them has led me to actually start writing, which has led me to keeping a dev journal.
I've settled on a Retro 51 Tornado. Nice price when I've bought them and they take a lot of different refills.
Especially if you go with a medium nib.
I only have used Lamy fine and extra fine nibs, any recommendations for other companies?
Very low friction, super-quick to scribble stuff down, easily erased etc. Even the cheapo mechanical pencils are pretty decent IME
The only mechanical pencil lead I've found that matches the smoothness of a good rollerball or fountain pen is Pilot Neox in 4B. Although it's my favorite pencil lead, it has the significant disadvantage of smudging easily.
When I was in high school, I bought a .9mm mechanical pencil, and it was glorious for standardized tests. Filling in circles was just a quick spiral inward, and the forms with rectangles were even easier — just a swipe across. I still have the thing, even though I haven't taken a multiple choice test in over a decade.
Most don't leak, and if you are really finicky about mess (like I used to be before children) you can fill them with a syringe... not a stray drop anywhere.
The utility (and cost-effectiveness in many cases) of bottled inks, and avoiding the landfill waste of using cartridges is worth the extra effort in cleaning and maintaining a fine instrument.
Originally I studied and trained as an Architect - A lettering sheet a week to practice my hand lettering skills.
Rather than go into Architecture, I went into IT, eventually being a phone jockey providing tech support for half a decade. While trying to keep up (somewhat) with the conversation, my note taking speed meant my lettering quality went out the window.
So I bought my first fountain pen to force myself to slow down and spend more time lettering better. If I forget, my ink stained hands serve as a reminder. :)
I have only changed pens when I lose the previous (like once to the TSA along with a pocket knife, another time while using a shopping cart as a skateboard back to the market). Hopefully someone found that one and put it to use...
Although I do not like fat pens, the cartridge style cannot get too thin, which also means they are more pleasant to hold in the hand. That turned out to be important to me if significant time is spent using it.
Of course, YMMV.
I use the Herbin ballpoint for quick notes and I really like it. For longer sessions, I'll whip up a Pilot Vanishing Point as I find that the added flex causes less fatigue. I also ordered Yookers felt tip pens that takes FP ink (https://yookers-shop.com/). I love the Sharpie pens, so if they feel the same, I might just hoard them and slowly empty my ink collection.
I own one of their ink pens but I use it rarely so I can't say much about durability.
I found I could write much more legibly using a fountain pen, so I've been using them since 1st or 2nd grade. There's a ton of drawbacks to using fountain pens for everything daily. First, while rare, I'd still get leaks and ink on my hands. For instance, if I dropped the pen. Second, there's a bit of a maintenance burden on fountain pens, the nibs need to be cleaned from time to time. Finally, pretty much all of these inks will wash out if the paper gets wet, so it's super bad for legal documents. I like the Pilot Metropolitan fountain pens as they strike the right balance of affordability and quality. The Fine nib for me (correlates to EF from American/European companies) seems to be the sweet spot, Medium feels imprecise for me. Noodler ink seems great, I was previously using Schaeffer ink and it was just ok.
The latest pens I've come enjoy using are Pilot's Frixxion line. I grabbed on a whim awhile back and feel like every student of mathematics should know of these pens. They are a gel pen with fine point options but they can be 'erased' by rubbing a plastic nub on the back against paper. This heats up the paper and causes the ink to disappear. The effect can be reversed by throwing the paper in the freezer if erasure was unintended (or if a notebook was left in an extremely hot cat). I wish I had known about these pens when I was in school. Gel-type pens seem a bit more practical than fountain for daily carry or occasional use, not as good as a fountain but the ink seems to flow better than ballpoint and the tips don't get messed up like a felt pen.
EDIT: More on topic though, I have tried rollerball pens and did not like them. They seemed even less precise than ballpoints for me and skipped more. Terrible writing experience all around, would not do again.
I've even found a bunch of other inks that aren't advertised as waterproof/resistant that ended up to be waterproof depending on the paper. For example J. Herbin Perle Noire on meh paper.
I do fine with them as an everyday carry, my gripe is mainly when I get a new pen, paper or ink knowing that a paper might not like a certain pen or ink.
Rohrer & Klingner dokumentus or sketch-ink
First one is certified document proof, the others work the same, just that the used pigments are not as hardened against chemicals to allow strict iso certification.
They are both fast at drying and once dry, won't give a inch to water. Not even coloring the water and marking the rest of the paper, where it flowed.
My background in handwriting starts in kindergarten when my teacher had me pick my right hand after I couldn't decide which hand I preferred to grip with (they had these little triangular rubber grip guides for the hands). A year or two later I would switch to my left when my right would cramp, as this hand learned whatever the right did just as easily.
There are many submissions on HN about neurodiversity, the way people think differently. I suspect that for the majority of the population, once they learn to write it's similar to walking: A largely automatic activity that doesn't require a huge amount of concentration to do. That's not been the case for me, maybe it's less brain lateralization, I don't know. I've begun to think more about it in recent years after a friend was diagnosed with ADHD a few years back. He is also someone with mixed-handedness and poor legibility. For him, being put on stimulant medication caused a dramatic improvement in his writing legibility. More recently, After I was no longer able to retain a secretary for note-taking in meetings I inquired about and received the same diagnosis. Stimulant medication has the same effect on me, for the first time in my life I can write legibly (if still slowly). I have no idea if this sort of medical approach would have helped my writing speeds if received while younger.
What I'm trying to convey is that I don't dislike writing, I just wasn't gifted with the physical ability to do it effectively. In the same sense, I might have also liked art courses if I could actually draw basic shapes without a ruler and compass.
In a discussion of pens, I feel that fountain pens can greatly help a person that might otherwise have difficulty penning in steady lines. It did for me at least. Keyboards have been even better. I can type so far above what I can write that writing is only left for my private notes, letters, and necessary legal documents like checks and tax stuff. I feel technology intervention in school would have been more helpful than providing better/alternative writing utensils and/or medicine but I was going through school before the schools were ready to provide it.
Funny story, the inks are named that as a commentary on Quantitative Easing. So much cash had to be printed so quickly, you see, that Bernanke really needed the ink to dry really fast...
I personally love fountain pens. The style, the tech, the aesthetic, everything. So this to me seems like a step back - and the writing end breaks every 20-30 fills!
Nib size also makes a difference; this was with an extra fine nib on a Lamy Safari.
I have samples of Noodler's 54th Massachusetts and Lexington Gray that I'm looking forward to trying.
(half-sarcastic)
Good paper doesn’t even have to be too expensive either. Maybe more than a college ruled notebook. But I don’t take copious notes so something aesthetically nice to use is a big plus for me.
>You might be wondering, why is this a question?
Why yes, exactly my thought, please tell me...
>If you check out Unsharpen’s Ink Types Guide, you’ll see that while rollerball ink is great, fountain pen ink is quite special.
Oh, ok, so I'll follow that link, and...
>It is, of course, the ink used in fountain pens, but it takes thousands of forms. The ink can be in a bottle or cartridge, it can be iron gall or water-based, it can be handmade or produced by the vat, it can be lubricated, fluorescent, quick-drying, or any number of other qualities. [...] Fountain pen inks are a looser, more watery consistency compared to all other pen inks. This means they are free-flowing and prone to splashing, forming droplets, and doing other things that have been known to ruin countless shirts.
Ok... So if I an to recap... The only real reason to use a ball pen with fountain ink is so I can refill it with whatever ink I like? OK, HN, I have some particular interests as well, but this is about the article of least importance I've ever seen on here.
It's as if all my other problems in life have been solved and I can be a pen/ink hipster? Maybe for someone, but I guess I'm just not there yet!
I do something similar but with paper and pen. I purchase customized laboratory notebooks that have my name and a serial number embossed on the front and otherwise blank pages. I write down every meeting I attend (or call into), the date and time of their start and stop, all the attendees names, as well as regular to do lists, action items, etc. After years of doing this I have a nicely curated collection of notebooks that look great on the shelf and give me a sense of pride and history on my work. I took the inspiration from George Washington's diarys which are in the library of congress. I also use a fancy fountain pen with beautiful blue ink which my wife purchased for me that adds an extra bit of personality to the whole experience. https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0010/gwdiary.html
So I downvoted!
and why devote your important time to respond to it, and judge it from your high vantage point ?
please carry on saving the world, we're relying on you
Re: obsession/cost, it is what you make it.
I know folks who won't buy a pen over $5, others who think nothing of dropping $200-$1000. I know pen folks that have a single bottle of ink and a single pen or two. Others that have dozens of pens and shelves of inks. Ink is relatively cheap. I have a bottle that cost me $20, came with a free pen, is waterproof ink and will last me about 130-200 refills. Another one was $5 for like 60-100.
How long a refill will last depends on a lot of variables(ink qualities, paper absorbency, flow, nib size) but it is possible to do this hobby for the same amount or cheaper than buying single use pens. For example,
The cheapest good pen you can buy without waiting for a month for it to come from China is a Platinum Preppy for $4. You can buy a pack of 10 cartridge refills for 6.75. That brings the price per use down to $0.97, comparable to what it would cost for a low to mid-grade ballpoint. If you instead decide to go for the real amortized savings and buy a bottle and either refill the cartridge via syringe/get a converter, you could reasonably get down to $0.50 per refill.
Even cheaper are the pen brands from abroad that have some models that cost a dollar for the pen and the converter(converter alone can be up to $8 if bought separately with some pens). You could even beat Bic prices. Priced out to as low as 7 cents per refill if you get cartridges in bulk and don't care what the ink is(1USD for pen + ~7USD for 100 cartridges).
It doesn't have to be this bespoke money pit hobby. One thing I have noticed is that zero people borrow pens from me now so I don't have to replace the pens that used to grow legs and walk off.
The parts of a fountain pen can be beautiful in their simplicity and in their appearance. Some of the finer pens have an exquisite beauty that comes from rare lacquers, like the Urushi process[1]; rare and dangerous tree sap turned into careful patterns. These materials change over time with use, becoming ever more personal as you use and care for them. Beautifully crafted nibs that hold patterns and designs expressing logos, orbits, flowers, coats of arms, all in a tiny space are wonderful to me. The pens themselves can be little works of art.
Underlying all of that, even in the less expensive pens, you have very basic principles of physics and fluid dynamics coming together to support one of the most basic human freedoms: self-expression in words and pictures. In some senses, this form of self-expression, when well-used, can be an elevating facet of one's daily life. I find the possibilities here beautiful, and feel a connection to that potential when using pens.
There is craftsmanship to appreciate in a well-made fountain pen. Like a well-made tool, or a well-made ship, sword, table... you name it... Using something so well-suited to the task of writing is a pleasure all on its own. Even the ritual involved in caring for a fine implement is a pleasure. Disassembling the pen into its component parts and cleaning it out holds the promise of refilling and more writing; the exploration that will come with new inks and new thoughts. This also gives me satisfaction.
Then there is the tinkering aspect. Many pens can be adjusted to the suit the wants and needs of their wielder. Swapping out nibs to gain different effects during formation of the letters, tuning nibs to your preferences, playing with different filling mechanisms... All of these also bring enjoyment.
Aesthetics, craftsmanship, and tinkering aside, there is the act of writing with these fine devices. I derive satisfaction from having filled a notebook page with text, even if it is just meeting notes. When it is actual expression, organized thought or expressed feeling, so much the better. Every stroke upon the page, every word chosen, every scribble in confusion was something I did. It was a small part of me, existing in this stream of reality, made evident on paper. No one else could have produced exactly what I did on the page, for better or worse. I'm not saying it has any intrinsic value to anyone but me, but I find it a very satisfying activity.
There have been a number of studies linking the activity of handwriting, painting, and drawing to good effects on executive function, and, in the case of journaling, to emotional well-being. I won't claim this is why I do it, but I can give anecdotal evidence that I've noticed improvements in memory and my ability to manage anxiety. I realize this is the "citation needed" portion of the comment. I'll have to search for those later [2].
Even if these weren't factors, I choose to write; for pleasure, for work (notes on paper are far quieter than rude tapping on a keyboard during meetings), and sometimes to occupy my hands. That said, I want a means that is an improvement over disposable plastic pens that get tossed in landfills. If I seek pens that are not disposable, it leads me to fountain pens and fountain pen ink. A 4.5 oz. bottle of Noodler's Ink, and the free fountain pen that comes with it, are more worthwhile than dozens of disposable pens.
Even with the more expensive pens, you will get use from them for decades, perhaps even more than one lifetime. I will admit, however, that practicality is the least of my reasons for digging in to the pen hobby.
Personally, I also get a sense of connection to history. This is so even when using the modern refinements brought to these instruments. When I use pen and ink, I join a long tradition of people who left their mark upon the page. From scribes copying manuscripts and writing digests in the catalogs at Alexandria, to the letters penned and exchanged between famous scientists, authors, composers, and politicians; I get to feel a sense of joining them. Not in significance, or in the impact of my words, but I can imagine some tenuous connection to those people. They, like me, took pen in hand and wrote. In some minute sense, I am like them.
For the pen's connection to freedom of expression, I will also forever love the hobby.
I haven't even mentioned inks in all of this, as that would extend this post far longer than I have time for.
What has any of this to do with hacking? Writing is an act of creation, just like woodworking (the original hacking), or coding. Just as we discuss mechanical keyboards, programmer's editors, and programming languages for software construction, pen, their construction, alteration, care, and the inks used with them, are similar.
These are some of the reasons I like pens. Your mileage may vary. And yes, I wrote this out with a fountain pen first.
[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/nancyolson/2016/05/15/three-way...
After all you’re on hacker news the site for people who are obsessive about things no one else cares about.
Threading models? (Or any programming thing you’re into) Sure. Whatever. Won’t save you from 2019-nCOV or global warming or nuclear war.
