undefined | Better HN

0 pointsuserbinator5y ago0 comments

The whole reason emulators are legal and ROMs aren't is because emulators are original work not owned by the console developer.

Except that people need ROMs to test emulators with.

Just like the old saying that it's impossible to actually start "from scratch", at some point everything is a derivative work of everything else; it just has to be far enough away to not attract legal attention.

0 comments

coldpie5y ago

It's not really comparable. It is legal to rip ROMs for your own use. Distributing ROMs discreetly is illegal, but also basically impossible to prove. If reverse-engineered, the hardware ABI that the cartridge uses to converse with the system is not copyrightable[1] so you can distribute an emulator that you developed. Meanwhile it's pretty trivial to prove that some code is derived from some other code or some internal docs. The legal risks are wildly different.

[1] At least for now; burn in Hell, Oracle.

fzeroracer5y ago

>It is legal to rip ROMs for your own use

Incorrect. People say this all the time but no, it is not in fact legal. It's never been tested in court and Nintendo takes the explicit view that both it is illegal to rip your own roms and that said devices are illegal.

Now you and I can disagree with Nintendo, but Nintendo could sue someone for ripping their own roms. They won't however, because it would be an incredibly difficult case to prove. Don't mistake that for it being legal or illegal however.

ruytlm5y ago

>it is not in fact legal.

Without a test case, we cannot state with certainty whether it is legal or illegal - particularly as some jurisdictions have carve-outs from copyright for format shifting.

Nintendo could sue for someone ripping their own ROMs; what is unclear, and also would determine legality, is whether Nintendo would win.

coldpie5y ago

Do you have a source for that? I don't see how it can't be legal, no copyright is violated. Ripping DVDs is illegal, because the DMCA makes cracking encryption even for personal use illegal, but that doesn't apply to unencrypted ROMs.

colejohnson665y ago

I wonder. What’s the difference between ripping the ROM of an IC versus just hooking the address and data pins of the IC into your computer and using some code to interface with the emulator?

userbinatorOP5y ago

Meanwhile it's pretty trivial to prove that some code is derived from some other code or some internal docs.

There are only so many sensible ways to do things. Straight copying would certainly be stupid but I think it won't be provable unless you decide to include specific aspects which would not be possible to discover through reverse-engineering, and it is likely such things wouldn't affect emulation anyway, so obviously as an emulator developer would be of no real use.

tl;dr: people are smart.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

coldpie5y ago

[1] At least for now; burn in Hell, Oracle.

fzeroracer5y ago

>It is legal to rip ROMs for your own use

ruytlm5y ago

>it is not in fact legal.

Without a test case, we cannot state with certainty whether it is legal or illegal - particularly as some jurisdictions have carve-outs from copyright for format shifting.

Nintendo could sue for someone ripping their own ROMs; what is unclear, and also would determine legality, is whether Nintendo would win.

coldpie5y ago

colejohnson665y ago

I wonder. What’s the difference between ripping the ROM of an IC versus just hooking the address and data pins of the IC into your computer and using some code to interface with the emulator?

userbinatorOP5y ago

Meanwhile it's pretty trivial to prove that some code is derived from some other code or some internal docs.

tl;dr: people are smart.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse