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0 pointsnoir-york5y ago0 comments

Because China is threatening the global order on which peace and prosperity lies, starting with the freedom of the seas.

China is already harassing and sinking fishing vessels and trying to close the South China Sea. It may soon try to enforce an ADIZ over the SC Sea as well. Not great.

China is a growing aggressive power with cyber attacks across a multitude of countries and is running, like Russia, disinformation campaigns to undermine democracy.

It is in the interest of EU and the US, and indeed many countries, to have a rules-based international order. It is increasingly in the interests of the US as its power is in relative decline.

0 comments

Youden5y ago

Those are some reasons for "against China" but how about "with the US"?

The US isn't the only potential ally against Chinese influence, why should Europe align itself with America instead of other countries?

Also, do you think there's no argument to be made for changing China's behaviour through a partnership?

noir-yorkOP5y ago

> The US isn't the only potential ally against Chinese influence, why should Europe align itself with America instead of other countries?

Of course! All countries that value a rules-based order should ally, and that would include the EU, the US, India, Australia, and the many other smaller countries.

> Also, do you think there's no argument to be made for changing China's behaviour through a partnership?

Been tried. India was trying that by letting China have a stake in the economy. It hasn't ummmm worked out so well.

China uses the economy as a tool for its own political aims.

fxtentacle5y ago

For me, it reads like they wanted to discuss the rules for the new order, but then the US suspended talks over what might be called greed.

noir-yorkOP5y ago

I was replying to the point about why EU and the US should form an alliance against China - and the reason being the wider geostrategic context.

NicoJuicy5y ago

But he is correct. US withdrew current alliances, so the trust to create new ones is partially gone.

There is a reason that the next president will have to restore trust to the US as world leader and will have a tougher job than normal.

NicoJuicy5y ago

We all know this, but Europe has no trust in the US under Trump.

How can you not see that they are waiting till trust re-appears.

1 example: If Europe would really partner up, Trump would require Russia to be in the table ( G7). The current situation is nuts and it's not Europe's fault.

Ps. Trump has no interest in peace and prosperity. Haven't you been paying attention? The US has never been this divided and the current leader thinks tweeting is more important.

noir-yorkOP5y ago

> Ps. Trump has no interest in peace and prosperity. Haven't you been paying attention? The US has never been this divided and the current leader thinks tweeting is more important.

Trump's only interest is re-election.

The US govt is a huge entity with may players of which the president is one, albeit an important one. The US military, State, academia and other institutions are all actors and they do have an interest in peace and prosperity.

Presidents come and go, but institutions remain and it is important that the relevant institutions adopt a common posture towards China.

noir-yorkOP5y ago

> How can you not see that they are waiting till trust re-appears.

The EU cannot afford to wait that long. China isn't taking a pause on its aggression. Indeed, its exploiting the US under Trump, Covid, etc to move aggressively now.

> The current situation is nuts and it's not Europe's fault.

"fault"? It doesn't have to be your fault if the mess still ends on your lap. And Europe (and I'm a European) being neighbours with Eurasia doesnt have the luxury of huge oceans separating it from revanchist powers.

NicoJuicy5y ago

I'm European too.

The thing about democracy is, it's a slow process.

Currently the best thing is to wait till November and China knows that.

They are exploiting the situation, but in contrast. I think the "one road, one belt" will fail if they continue their exploitive behaviour.

Taiwan is not an easy topic right now, because it's a bit too early. Since Western democracy under Trump is not United :(

As soon as we can, harder measures should be employed.

1 more reply

Mirioron5y ago

How is it not Europe's fault? When it comes to digital businesses it's almost entirely Europe's fault. It's European countries that have been trying left and right to somehow squeeze more money out of largely American digital businesses. From the new digital taxes in France and Italy to the Google News row in Germany and Spain. This stuff started by Europe way before Trump ever entered the picture.

NicoJuicy5y ago

> squeeze more money out of largely American digital businesses

It's European money, that is taxed. Not money earned outside of the country.

American corporations squeezing money out of European countries would be a more accurate description.

Basic economic insight :)

1 more reply

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Youden5y ago

Those are some reasons for "against China" but how about "with the US"?

The US isn't the only potential ally against Chinese influence, why should Europe align itself with America instead of other countries?

Also, do you think there's no argument to be made for changing China's behaviour through a partnership?

noir-yorkOP5y ago

> The US isn't the only potential ally against Chinese influence, why should Europe align itself with America instead of other countries?

Of course! All countries that value a rules-based order should ally, and that would include the EU, the US, India, Australia, and the many other smaller countries.

> Also, do you think there's no argument to be made for changing China's behaviour through a partnership?

Been tried. India was trying that by letting China have a stake in the economy. It hasn't ummmm worked out so well.

China uses the economy as a tool for its own political aims.

fxtentacle5y ago

For me, it reads like they wanted to discuss the rules for the new order, but then the US suspended talks over what might be called greed.

noir-yorkOP5y ago

I was replying to the point about why EU and the US should form an alliance against China - and the reason being the wider geostrategic context.

NicoJuicy5y ago

But he is correct. US withdrew current alliances, so the trust to create new ones is partially gone.

There is a reason that the next president will have to restore trust to the US as world leader and will have a tougher job than normal.

NicoJuicy5y ago

We all know this, but Europe has no trust in the US under Trump.

How can you not see that they are waiting till trust re-appears.

1 example: If Europe would really partner up, Trump would require Russia to be in the table ( G7). The current situation is nuts and it's not Europe's fault.

Ps. Trump has no interest in peace and prosperity. Haven't you been paying attention? The US has never been this divided and the current leader thinks tweeting is more important.

noir-yorkOP5y ago

> Ps. Trump has no interest in peace and prosperity. Haven't you been paying attention? The US has never been this divided and the current leader thinks tweeting is more important.

Trump's only interest is re-election.

Presidents come and go, but institutions remain and it is important that the relevant institutions adopt a common posture towards China.

noir-yorkOP5y ago

> How can you not see that they are waiting till trust re-appears.

The EU cannot afford to wait that long. China isn't taking a pause on its aggression. Indeed, its exploiting the US under Trump, Covid, etc to move aggressively now.

> The current situation is nuts and it's not Europe's fault.

NicoJuicy5y ago

I'm European too.

The thing about democracy is, it's a slow process.

Currently the best thing is to wait till November and China knows that.

They are exploiting the situation, but in contrast. I think the "one road, one belt" will fail if they continue their exploitive behaviour.

Taiwan is not an easy topic right now, because it's a bit too early. Since Western democracy under Trump is not United :(

As soon as we can, harder measures should be employed.

1 more reply

Mirioron5y ago

NicoJuicy5y ago

> squeeze more money out of largely American digital businesses

It's European money, that is taxed. Not money earned outside of the country.

American corporations squeezing money out of European countries would be a more accurate description.

Basic economic insight :)

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse