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0 pointsderefr5y ago0 comments

Seems like one of those cases where solving a “little” issue would actually require rearchitecting the entire system.

Namely, in this case, it seems like the “right thing” is for games to not derive their ELO contributions from pure win/loss/draw scorings at all, but rather for games to be converted into ELO contributions by how far ahead one player was over the other at the point when both players stopped playing for whatever reason (where checkmate, forfeit, and game disruption are all valid reasons.) Perhaps with some Best-rank (https://www.evanmiller.org/how-not-to-sort-by-average-rating...) applied, so that games that go on longer are “more proof” of the competitive edge of the player that was ahead at the time.

Of course, in most central cases (of chess matches that run to checkmate or a “deep” forfeit), such a scoring method would be irrelevant, and would just reduce to the same data as win/loss/draw inputs to ELO would. So it’d be a bunch of effort only to solve these weird edge cases like “how does a half-game that neither player forfeited contribute to ELO.”

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retrac5y ago

> but rather for games to be converted into ELO contributions by how far ahead one player was over the other at the point when both players stopped playing for whatever reason

Except for the obvious positions that no one serious would even play, there is no agreed-upon way of calculating who has an advantage in chess like that. One man's terrible mobility and probable blunder is another's brilliant stratagem.

derefrOP5y ago

Hm, you’re right; guess I was thinking in terms of how this would apply to Go, where it’d be as simple as counting territory.

Still, just to spitball: one “obvious” approach, at least in our modern world where technology is an inextricable part of the game, would be to ask a chess-computer: “given that both players play optimally from now on, what would be the likelihood of each player winning from this starting board position?” The situations where this answer is hard/impossible to calculate (i.e. estimations close to the beginning of a match) are exactly the situations where the ELO contribution should be minuscule anyway, because the match didn’t contribute much to tightening the confidence interval of the skill gap between the players.

Of course, players don’t play optimally. I suspect that, given GPT-3 and the like, we’ll soon be able to train chess-computers to mimic specific players’ play-styles and seeming limits of knowledge (insofar as those are subsets of the chess-computer’s own capabilities, that it’s constraining its play to.) At that point, we might actually be able to ask the more interesting question: “given these two player-models and this board position, in what percentage of evolutions from this position does player-model A win?”

Interestingly, you could ask that question with the board position being the initial one, and thus end up with automatically-computed betting odds based on the players’ last-known skill (which would be strictly better than ELO as a prediction on how well an individual pair of players would do when facing off; and therefore could, in theory, be used as a replacement for ELO in determining who “should” be playing whom. You’d need an HPC cluster to generate that ladder, but it’d be theoretically possible, and that’s interesting.)