I'm at a FAANG company at the moment and I'm finding it quite unfulfilling (nothing new here), and for the last several months I've been hacking away on my own projects just to keep honing my skills and to try to figure out what's possible in terms of turning technical know-how into commercial products.
The last one I built felt like a relatively solid idea but I quickly realized (a) how much of the difficulty in launching the product depended on having a good network and knowing how to utilize it, and (b) how much I felt poorly equipped to do (a). Moreover, I'm also understanding how deeply reliant tech products are on domain knowledge in the industry they're attempting to push into.
The conclusion here seems to be that I'd be far more effective at reaching my goals working in partnership with someone who checks the above boxes (which, in hindsight, was incredibly obvious). The problem I'm having now, though, is that none of my friends are similarly motivated to me, and networking feels nigh-impossible with the COVID-19 situation.
Does anyone here have tips on how they meet people and feel out whether there's any professional compatibility – especially in the current situation? While I'm not opposed to just riding this out and trying to network the traditional way when the world reopens, it seems like there has to be a more effective way.
> The good news is, choosing problems is something that can be learned. I know that from experience. Hackers can learn to make things customers want. [6]
>This is a controversial view. One expert on "entrepreneurship" told me that any startup had to include business people, because only they could focus on what customers wanted. I'll probably alienate this guy forever by quoting him, but I have to risk it, because his email was such a perfect example of this view:
80% of MIT spinoffs succeed provided they have at least one management person in the team at the start. The business person represents the "voice of the customer" and that's what keeps the engineers and product development on track.
One example, from my past, abandoned self-funded startup: my co-founder (customer domain expert) and I (all-in-one engineering) didn't want to be the ones courting VC, but we were also too slow to seek out a startup business person. For maybe two reasons:
1. We had a couple outside-the-box approaches, which would only really resonate with users because we weren't doing something in the way every other CEO in that space did it.
2. We were busy, and didn't know offhand where to look for the kind of CEO we needed -- who we'd trust to embrace the approach, not twist it before launch, nor (ethically worse) bait&switch our users afterwards.
Maybe some kind of incubator would've helped us launch and get far enough for the right CEO to come to us. But we didn't have time to jump through the hoops of something like YC, for a small chance at a small amount of funding. And the process still seems oriented towards founders who want to be doing all the business stuff.
PG might've sought to mold technical founders into business people -- but some technical people already have some idea what business is about, and know they'd rather someone else (trustworthy!) do the business parts they don't want to do much of.
Putting the best tech person as CEO effectively makes it a solo founder effort. The ideal is the business person as CEO, or perhaps some multi-talented person where product development is fully delegated to a CTO.
It's not actually multiple persons that you need on your team, it's different roles. The technical person, the product person, the management person, the visionary, the organized person, there's probably a dozen more personality traits that are helpful if not essential. They could all be in the same person, but it's more likely it's 2 or 3. They don't all need to be founders, but the more committed they are to the company, the better that aspect is reflected in the company, and the more succesful it might be.
Google didn't need any marketing, they just needed engineers, so they hired engineers, and people who could hire engineers, and people who could manage engineers. By the time they needed something else they were already making so much money they could afford to motivate excellence by monetary compensation alone, not every start up has that luxury.
Larry Page and Sergey Brin originally wanted Google to be a pay-to-use service and were against ads. I don't know how they came to their change in business model, but I suspect it was after they hired people that weren't engineers to help.
Schmidt joined Google in March 2001. For all of 1999 Google only had $220,000 in revenue (founded Sept 1998). Their early, primitive experiments in advertising worked well enough, they brought in $19m in revenue for 2000 (which would increase 300% in 2001, and then 400% in 2002).
[1] 2013: https://slate.com/business/2013/10/googles-big-break-how-bil...
[2] 2005: https://www.gq.com/story/google-larry-sergey
> Schmidt met all of Larry and Sergey's stringent criteria. He had a credible name, a Ph.D. (from Berkeley), and he promised not to push the boys aside or dismantle the quirky culture they'd engendered. "The board members told me, basically, 'Don't screw this thing up!' " Schmidt says. "They said, 'It needs some infrastructure, some growing, but the gem here is very real.'"
For years, they required that all their hires could program, even those in completely unrelated roles.
You need someone who has the right network, and/or can network, and/or can comfortably network. While still contributing as a co-founder.
Usually extraverts are good at this. If you're an introvert, you could still do it, but chances are you spent most of your life avoiding and/or wanting to avoid other folks.
Since you work at a FAANG as an engineer, I assume you are fairly well compensated so I suggest finding a semi-expensive hobby (definitely not FIRE friendly) like sailing or flying which may cost like $1k/mo to something you remotely enjoy so you get to meet people from all walks of life and domain expertise enjoying a "not cheap" hobby. The fact that they can afford it means they are motivated. The person doing your hobby may not be the person you end up starting a business with but it may be one-step away (degrees of separation).
This may be bad advice ... so take with a grain of salt :)
Why do people pay $150k to get an MBA at Harvard if you can pay $20k somewhere else and maybe get the EXACT same education? It's because you know 99% of the people there paid $150k and you have a "better" network.
To be fair, they're looking for co-founders which may not require meeting people from all walks of life.
If you are looking to start a VC-scale startup, I’d suggest talking to VCs who can help introduce you to domain experts. There are a few reasons this is beneficial:
- You get to battle test your idea to hone the story. This will help you recruit non-technical people.
- You build relationships with VC for the moment you need funding.
- You learn which VC are actually helpful. The meme is that all VC have to pitch how much value they add, but the reality is most can’t/won’t/don’t outside of MBA 101 platitudes.
- A great VC is always building out networks for BD and founder identification. You should leverage that to help in your space.
- Even if the idea doesnt pan out, if you prove yourself to be talented and hard working, they are incentivized to help you find a role relevant to your interests.
This is colored by my personal investing philosophy that you should prioritize meeting “makers”. Others prioritize meeting executives, or sources of capital, or influencers, etc... None is a “true” path, there are successes in each. But the ones focused on makers always want to chat with folks like you.
But be careful what you wish for. Getting the cold call response and even the first meeting is relatively easy. But it is also easy to exhibit a level of cluelessness that will get you blackballed, and if that happens you will probably never know it. So that first meeting can be very much a two-edged sword. You only get one chance to make a first impression.
the cold email contents will be a concise summary of the above.
Based on the detail you've provided, it seems one problem you're facing is access to industry domain experts who can both validate what you're doing and also perhaps help you refine the product and market access.
If that is correct, I'd suggest that you don't, at this point, look for a non-technical co-founder but rather just approach people with domain expertise in the industry that you're trying to target for advice and validation by requesting a short conversation. LinkedIn can be a very good source and depending on how you approach the people and your own profile you may get a very good response from people. Anywhere above 20-30% response rate would be very good just to set expectations, it can be higher or lower but don't be disheartened.
Depending on the domain you're targeting there is a much much larger pool of people who will offer you initial advice than who will be willing to join as co-founder. Once you get connected and they accept, just talk to these people. Get input, and also ask for further connections, as in is there someone you should be speaking to that they can introduce you to. Use them in future when you're looking to make a sale or for early adoption and again, for advice.
This will kick start your journey and you will find people. If you find someone truly awesome and nice, who is also interested in what you're doing, you can ask them to be an advisor. If you find someone who is interested in joining, then perhaps have them join. But be careful, and make diligent decision before having people join the team.
I realize now that my initial post may have implied otherwise, but I'm mostly looking to start establishing relationships that may lead to entrepreneurial collaboration in the future. I'm definitely not looking to jump straight into anything at the moment – it's not like there's a particular idea I'm in love with, and I'm naturally a very cautious person so I'd like to take the time to get to know people before starting a project with them.
My concern is moreso that it takes a lot of time and effort to build trust, and so I'd like to start meeting such people sooner rather than later.
Another option, often not considered, depending on where you are in your career is to join a very early stage startup that is doing something in your domain, for 1-2 years.
This may or may not be an option for you depending on your own factors, but that is a good option as it helps people migrate from the large company mindset to a startup mindset. Also, it helps extend your network with the right kind of people that may help when you go on your own.
Not only will you learn a ton about shipping product in a startup (risking someone else’s money), but you will also grow your own network - including non-technical founder types.
This model worked for me. I spent twelve years with the US federal government. I had great tech and business skills, but it was all federally focused.
I joined the founding team of a startup, using my tech background. We got acquired 15 months in by a later stage startup. The resulting company IPO’d four years later. I joined another startup in the same industry as CTO just after their Series A, we got acquired two years later. Then I launched my own - 8 years after leaving the federal government.
It is a ton easier now, with all the relationships from the last two. (Not to mention the depth of knowledge on everything)
It is easy to think startups are all about the product & technology. But it is so much more!
Good options for maximizing your network 1) stay with a Faang and reach out to people internally - many of the best non tech people are inside Amazon, FB etc 2) consider consulting that blends you with larger teams or different functions, either with a company or freelancing.
Just to make this clear, I do not think "business" co-founders are useless. There are a lot of very good ones that bring a lot of value. All I am saying is that I have made bad experiences taking in "business" people to handle the "business" part of the startup. Most of the time you can (and should) learn the necessary skills yourself. Every startup needs technical co-founders, however most startups don't NEED non-technical co-founders.
In my experience, formal education tends to be very corporate-operations focused because that’s where most grads go. Most courses presuppose that the company has already found product-market fit - using these same behaviours in a new venture context could be dangerous.
Ideally, you’d find someone who recognises this difference and works to learn the differences between the environments, and brings the best of both worlds to the venture.
Also, be careful of non-compete agreements by joining other start-ups.
There are several ways in which you can find good co-founders:
1. Don’t prioritise finding a co-founders, just start building something and reach out to people. They might love what you’re doing and come on-board.
2. Get recommendations via your network about people who want to build a company and have complementary skills / similar goals.
3. Increase your visibility, publish your thoughts, network and debate about the future - randomness / serendipity is a wondrous force
4. Accelerators such as Antler and EF - as a last resort.
I’m also looking for smart, relentless people that want to build a better future for generations to come. Don’t hesitate to reach out via linkedin - username: tudordragos
It's much harder to find these people than you might think, and it can be really hard to get rid of a bad one if you screw up. (As the Russians say, "Doveryai, no proveryai - Trust, but verify!")
Even if that startup itself fails you are likely to meet people you could start another company with and if it succeeds it will be an even better place to start a company from when leaving, most exceptional founders love to support their employees leaving to start something new.
FAANG is actually way better to meet cofounders. At Google you can have lunch with a talented person every day (there’s internal apps to network like this), plus countless other opportunities to network both formally and informally.
In contrast, at an early stage startup you’ll mostly work with the same people every day and your network will stagnate.
Furthermore, early stage startups tend to have a ton of work that needs to be done that they hire there engineers to do. Unless you get CTO title, you’re probably not going to get exposed much to the BD side or get investor access.
Finally, being able to work full time on your startup to get demo ready to pitch is super helpful. A nest egg from FAANG RSUs is key here, startup ISOs are probably worth nothing and will reduce your cushioning.
If you want to do a startup, go to networking events, apply to YC, etc but leaving FAANG to be an early stage employee w goal, not closer, especially if you don’t at least get CTO title.
Stay at the cushy high paying job and network on nights and weekends. Even better, make a point to ask a person out to lunch every week at the FAANG job once the pandemic is over.
"Networking" for me has just been hanging out with my music and YouTuber buddies. Turns out if you know how to SPELL PHP or HTML you can provide HUGE value to non-technical friends. Doing something as simple as fixing a typo in some JavaScript tracking code for friend's websites makes me look like I've shown them fire for the first time. Find a hobby you like that's non-technical (for me it's learning Chinese, salsa dancing, and metal), show up, have a good time, and within a year or two you'll have a high quality network of non-technical partners.
As an engineer for an early-stage startup you daily work and value add - shipping things and invest into deep engineering work, would not be very well aligned with networking and relationship building that would be beneficial to start on your own.
Another interesting idea to consider - as a FAANG engineer you would be able to angel invest already (or fairly soon). That would be a productive (quite expensive though) way to meet more people interested in the same things as you do.
1. It was easy to find people interested in startups at Google, but the quality of those interactions tended to be pretty low. The vast majority of people really did not have any experience with how startups actually functioned, and most people I talked to were more taken with the prestige and fantasy of being a founder than with actually seriously thinking about running a startup. I'm sure there are great and experienced operators at Google who are very competent and pragmatic startup folks - but those were generally not the people you found at internal events geared towards "people interested in startups".
2. I learned a lot cross-functionally when I joined my current team (which was < 5 people at the time). I was talking to customers in sales and support calls, helping to think about product and market strategy, and generally helping out on a variety of interesting things. You're definitely right that I wasn't talking to investors (at least, not on a regular basis - as an early employee, sometimes investors still want to chat to learn more about how things are on the ground) nor was I spending my days prospecting and finding BD partnerships, but I did learn a surprising amount about deal dynamics, selling B2B, and thinking about markets and customers in general. That said, this may have been because of the extraordinarily open and competent sales folks I worked with.
When I look on my list of "people I would co-found with", the vast majority of those people are the incredibly intense and competent folks I met working at the (now no longer early stage) startup I moved to. In general, I think about finding a co-founder less as "cast a wide net to find your one true partner" and more as "work alongside the most aggressively competent people you can find, and hopefully some of those people will mesh with you well enough that you would consider co-founding with them" (with the corollary that, if you find yourself in a job where you feel like you're mostly coasting, this is probably not a good environment for finding co-founders (although it certainly may be a good environment for you for other reasons)).
As usual, grain of salt - I was basically a new grad when I joined Google, and I expect the experience would be very different if I had a strong, senior network there. I also come from a position of unusual privilege - my parents are both engineers and I have lots of friends in engineering and I'm good at what I do, so I am unusually risk tolerant because "running out of money" or "being unable to easily find a job" is just not a thing I worry about.
That being said, all high-impact jobs at a startup are technical at first and then slowly shifts to nontechnical. So early on, your non-technical cofounder will be bored and not have much to do. And as time goes on, assuming they are still around, that will shift.
Consider instead going with two technical founders, and assume one or both of you will end up shifting into a more operational role.
If we were not in the middle of COVID I would say to take a trip to Atlanta. In the Atlanta startup community there is no shortage of MBA and marketing types with lots of ideas that are just looking for a developer who is willing to work for next to nothing and equity that is much smaller than it should be.
Of course all of these business types will tell you about how they are the tech visionaries. They dominate most of the big startup events in that town that are supposed to be tech focused and will write countless marketing pieces telling you why their next co-working space makes Atlanta the "Silicon Valley of the East". In reality, a former tech reporter for the Atlanta Business Chronicle more accurately called Atlanta the Bangalore of the South since many larger tech groups will open offices here to try to reduce costs.
Don't get me wrong with Atlanta, it is a great place to live from a standpoint of having a lower cost of living compared with what you can get for a salary, especially if you are able to work for a west coast company that pays well. There are also other cities with a similar dynamic.
My point is that there are many ways to find it, but be careful because you may be trading one set of problems for another.
I would NOT quit your day job until you have a clear direction and a reasonable certainly of progress. Treat your current employer as a passive investor in your next venture.
Here is a pointer to the first blog post in a series that provides some practical advice on how to find cofounders: https://www.skmurphy.com/blog/2010/06/25/finding-a-co-founde...
i mean, what you're essentially looking for is the intellectual equivalent of a bar, or more conveniently, the halls of residence in a good university.
the reason universities are so ideal for finding cofounders is that perfect blend of infinite trajectory (minimal real world obligations) and equal standing. ideally, the place you're talking about has the capacity to integrate these things into a social sphere, without the media.
hn can fulfil this role more or less, and could do so to a greater extent if they had the incentive to. you have the karma / profile to judge someone's character and understanding, and their further contact if that's what they want.
it so happens that all of the job postings are for technical positions, but that is due to the fact that it is more likely for someone nontechnical to need an engineer than the other way around.
where else would the millennial steve jobs be lurking? (this is not exclusively rhetoric – if there is another answer that's not hn then go there)
if they're nowhere obvious, then they're hustling, and good luck finding them if you didn't go to school with them.
A good bet is someone who has their soul into the product. Someone who sincerely understands the pain point and works at it. If you're doing something for ships, you probably want to find someone who works within the ship industry. Spotify wasn't founded by music producers, but it was founded by people who were passionate about music streaming.
You want to learn digital marketing? There are many good tutorials on Youtube or you can buy some digital marketing books.
If you took this path, you would reach the state on which you may not need a business co-founder anymore. If you met a good business co-founder, at least, you could gauge whether they are competent or not using your business skills.
Some good materials for you to start learning business skills:
Digital marketing: https://www.youtube.com/user/neilvkpatel
Corporate finance: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUl4u3cNGP63B2lDhyKOs...
Supply chain: https://www.coursera.org/specializations/supply-chain-manage...
HR: https://www.coursera.org/specializations/human-resource-mana...
Of course, YC Startup Library is a top-notch resource: https://www.ycombinator.com/library
About networking in Covid-19.... Actually it's still possible. You could join some online communities. You could build your brand on social media (Linkedin, Twitter, etc). For example, if I wanted to network with some influential people on blockchain space, I would follow their Twitter and contribute to the conversation (Twitter threads), I would join an opensource blockchain project and build some connections with the core developers. You get the idea.
Good luck!
Obviously, if you are both well rounded and have some understanding of the other's area that will make things more efficient but don't try to BE the other.
I would take my products, show them to as many people as possible, and find out who is interested. While engaging with those people, explain to them your situation and that you're looking for some help. Try to leverage your potential users' networks. (Just my 2 cents.)
All that aside -- I'd be interested in chatting about what you're working on and seeing if we might collaborate in the future. Feel free to reach out: vcinv10@gmail.com
Remember, in software in 2020 the only important thing is distribution. Work backwards from distribution. The biggest SaaS products aren't that great, they just have a great way to get sales/leads. The best consumer products, aren't that great (or weren't that great) - they just found an hack. 99.9% of startups thinks they need to make a great product and then raise VC and throw millions on FB and G ads -being highly unprofitable- (since PPC is a game for established deep-pocket companies with ridiculous CACs)
Literally just hacks: Airbnb, spamming Craiglist. Dropbox, referral incentive-based storage + a viral funny video for hackers. Stripe, they happened to be in an early YC batch. Facebook started with the most exclusive place in the world: Harvard. Hotmail: adding "sent with hotmail" at the end of the email. etc.
If you find a way to for ex. post on Facebook Groups at scale, then you should work a product backward from there since not all channels are suited for all products. If you have many friends in the intel community, probably you should make a product for the US Defense. Get the gist?
in 2020 any decent dev can create any product and/or copy your idea. what's impossible is getting tons of customers at a reasonable acquisition cost as to be profitable and have to spare to re-invest in growth.
Hardware/scientific breakthroughs are obviously different. Making the product is h hard part and distribution is easy: if you inventhe the transistor, the customers will be there.
so yeah a sales cofounder will add nothing as he wont happen to know which temporary weird thing on the internet allows in a very specific way to get a ton of customers at a very cheap price (ideally free). If he did, he would hire anyone in the world as a contractor to build a prototype and distribute it through the hack he found- 99% of the work is already done when you found the well. If you'll attempt to methodically find a well (usually one just stumbles upon it), know that before you'll find find 1 you'll have to go thru 100+ dry wells.
The alternative I guess is you could make software for a super niche kind of business. like Insurance. Software for insurance agents. Maybe an even more narrow niche. That's because you can reach these people via phone or email. which is free.
Leaving your job is going to be a very expensive mistake. If this is your motivation, your personal lack of fulfillment is going to be the #1 obstacle to recruiting others. This would be true of a cultural or non-profit enterprise too, and you underestimate how much recruiting by people who are chasing fulfillment in their lives boils down to, "And here's a bunch of dad's money" - those are the people you are competing with in terms of recruiting people into your thing, and those rich kids are going to do it better than you.
My suggestion is to only pursue something that you can do exclusively by yourself. That is the only takeaway. Or don't do this at all.
Either you recruit them to your idea, or they recruit you to theirs.
In the best case, you will jointly come up with a new idea.
Assuming you're in your 20s or early 30s, I recommend going to a place run by experienced people who can mentor you. I'm beyond that age range, but still have a boss who is experienced and teaches me something everyday.
In my experience Indie Hackers has an unusually high concentration of people who get things done, the kind of people with grit who you might want to partner with.
Then I see great devs and tech leads that wonder how to break into engineering management or CTO of a credible startup because all they see is random people with no clue pitching them.
Reach out to me and if you're a solid engineer I'll find you a solid business partner. (email in profile)
I would suggest getting on twitter and communities like indie hackers. People share how they’re getting users, they’re first customers, marketing tactics etc
As you consume more of this information and hack on your own projects you’ll develop a playbook for how to do it yourself.
Good luck.
Any ideas?
The problem you are describing is not unique in any way, shape or form. I coach dozens of startups every year and your problem is more common than you might think. When I first started, I was just like you. I had no one to turn to and I felt like I could get nowhere. Meetups and networking events were and still are a waste of time for the most part as you don’t really want to get into business with people you´ve only met for 2 hours and know very little about on a personal level. So where does that leave you?
1) You don’t need a non-technical person: Find a technical co-founder who has transitioned into management or have some sense of how to run a business and have said person be in charge of the duties that you don’t excel at. The reason I usually make this recommendation to people in your position is that most non-technical people tend to have a problem communicating with their technical counter-part because they don´t understand the technical challenges ahead the same way you do. It leads to resentment and hostility when communication breaks down. This is one of the most common reasons startups fail. Communication is key in team building.
2) Keep working on your product and ignore all the fluff: Put your head down and grind an MVP out before worrying about any of the other stuff. We can all pump out ideas by the hundreds, but execution is really what matters at the end of the day. Building an MVP most often does not require a co-founder. It just requires you to spend some of your free time building things. Do what you can for now (if you are serious about this) and stop worrying about “expansion plans”, “go to market strategies” and “networks”.
2) Get a couple of advisors that you can trust: Ask those who have gone through this whole thing before and let them mentor you. A lot of times people connect via their advisors´ networks and that usually ends up being a lot more successful of a partnership. This is because any person your advisor is going to suggest you partner up with in some capacity will have been screened/filtered by said advisor. I connect people at least a dozen times a year that I think would be great fit for each other, and that ends up working a lot better than finding people via networking events. The key here is to find advisors that are honest and want what is in your best interest.
3) Utilize capital properly: If you have an MVP for an idea that is worth its salt, finding capital these days is extremely easy. In fact, it is so easy that people raise absurd amounts because capital is competing for deals. There is a lot more money out there than there are good companies to invest in. All you need is for your product to be in the hands of a couple hundred people. This validates you and shows that you are actually doing real work. Investors invest in people first; products and ideas are secondary for the most part. Take that money and hire for the things you are not good at. You don’t always need a co-founder. Sometimes a good employee can become your co-founder after the fact as they prove to you over time that they are trust-worthy, hardworking and capable.
4) Create a communication channels: Once you have an MVP ready, make sure that communication channels with your users are well established for continuous feedback. As an example, you can create a Discord group where your users can give you feedback and feature requests/ideas. That becomes the mechanism for other like-minded people, that are already using your product, to reach out to you. It would be impossible for me to count the number of times people have reached out to me via one of those communication channels about one of my startups. When people are excited about what you are doing, they will seek you out rather than the other way around.
5) COVID is actually a blessing not a curse: There are now tens of thousands of people like you that are sitting at home waiting for their moment to shine. They are all motivated and willing to get to work. You just need to have something to present to the world so that people can be excited. Remember, you are asking for someone to go on a journey together with you. Excite people and have them chase you.
Finally, if you (or anyone else for that matter) wants to have a chat about their startup/product, feel free to reach out to me. My email is in my profile.
Hey, why not connect with me on LinkedIn:
www.linkedin.com/in/peter-sherman-a6107a5
Dont mean to hijack the thread...
I am in a similar position. I have a startup toonclip.com. Its a web based animation editor, has about 100 registered users and has some product market fit. Would love to meet business oriented founders who are familiar with this industry. Please drop an email to leisenmint AT protonmail DOT com