School or Prison (opens in new tab)

1. Talking to prisoners doesn't mean it's not a deterrent for the rest of the population. This is a massive selection bias, it's like saying diet and exercise doesn't work because morbidly obese people say it doesn't work for them.

2. People sometimes lie (often first to themselves), especially about their motivations. This is like an angry teenager yelling that all their rebellion is because of their parents' rules, it's often a self-serving rationalisation.

3. There's no doubt that the US prison system is a bit weird if you compare it to the rest of the world.

I think you are under-estimating the extent that many urban schools are preparing students for prison though, and have some structural features in common, even though of course schools aren't nearly as bad as prisons. Contemporary urban schools are often really terrible places, stockhousing and controlling children, preparing them to be stockhoused and controlled.

Federal prisons are well known to be cake walks. State prisons are the worst but again differ widely - even within the same state. Typically those with different types of crimes and sentences and ages get put in different prisons, so as you can imagine a nonviolent offender under 35 with a 10 year or less sentence gets sent to a much better prison then a serial killer who's 51 with a life sentence.

So take that dude's experience with a grain of salt. The state wants you to believe prison is hell, but as with most things it depends. The positive experiences I had in prison changed my life. If I had a choice between my prison experience and my experience as a master's student all over again I'd choose prison every time a million times over.

You answered your own question.

The purpose of prison is not reform. It's not even punishment or deterrence. The purpose of prison in the US is:

1) First and foremost it is a profit center. Caging human beings is a multi billion dollar industry in the US.

2) A storage facility for political dissidents and out groups. We just make up laws to target certain groups we don't like, and use that as pretext to lock them away (you know, that pesky first amendment always getting in the way).

3) To reify the carve out in the 13th Amendment which states:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Gotta keep slavery alive and well in the USA.

Americans with nice lives, particularly the types to frequent HN, are insulated from the effects of our criminal justice system. Concern for schooling takes precedence.

If the environment is so violent, why wouldn’t you want solitary confinement? (Is there a downside?)

Prison was HELL.

Now why don't people apply this to everything else? You think HN knows what it's like to be a plumber('s apprentice), janitor, drive a floor buffer for min-wage, etc?

Which looks really nice for a prison. I suspect it is an administrative building, or just the entrance. Not the place where inmates actually live.

School buildings move their entire populations through the entrance in the space of 10 minutes. Prisons are more-or-less entirely designed to prevent exactly that from happening.

It doesn't age particularly well, though

Point being that you can cherry pick any answer

That's subjective, but I can't say I like any of them

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consortium_of_Local_Authorit...

A lot of palaces, museums, galleries, opera houses, universities and houses of government share the same basic layout. You’d be hard pressed to say what the function of the Palace of Westminster was if you didn’t know. It certainly looks a lot like some schools and universities.

He traces the design we all see in the downtowns to the works of early german communists and their desire for good looking spaces and architecture that could cheaply be made for the masses in the coming revolution of the working classes. When capitalists heard about it they stopped listening after 'cheap' was uttered. "Oh, this is the 'modern' look and it's the new thing and it's cheap? Do 'em all like that then."

My recollection of Wolfe's short piece is a bit dated, but that's the theme as I remember. It's a short and fun little satirical look at how the 80's downtowns got to be looking as such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Bauhaus_to_Our_House

As an aside, I wonder how Minecraft is going to change the look of architects and cities in the future. I'm dead certain that the architects of the 2070s will have gotten their love of design in Minecraft.

I suppose maybe there is some truth to it. But he's highly disingenuous with his implications. It's like a Twitter hot-take that's expanded into a book. Hard libertarians might argue that taxation is in some way equivalent to slavery, which is also technically true but a very biased presentation of the facts. Schools and hospitals are similar to prisons in the same way taxation is similar to slavery (you can find similarities, but ignoring the differences is just asinine).

Every right requires responsibilities. If students have a right to learn, then schools have a responsibility to teach them. If young adults have a right to be educated in a broad range of topics (many of which did not interest them as children) then children have a responsibility to learn. Control is all about forcing people to take responsibility, because otherwise rights will be unfulfilled.

The question isn't whether control exists (it can and should) but whether the intent and implementation is just and efficient. A communist dictator can claim the right to a huge portion of the country's wealth while its population starves, this would be unjust.

There are valid questions to ask about control. Is it better to control inputs or outputs? Is it better to have a rule of laws and systems, or a rule of individuals with authority - discretion means giving more power to individuals. Are the trade-offs our society makes currently fair and worthwhile? If a punishment keeps the majority of the population responsible (thus giving creating rights) but hurts the occasional person who is somehow resistant to control is it a bad thing? But simply assuming that control is bad is silly.

So, there's some logic there. They are nominally responsible for you during school hours.

In his book "Discipline and Punish", Foucault argues that in the establishment of the modern prison, the mission of imprisonment shifted from punishing those who were imprisoned to reforming and disciplining them to become better citizens. The same organizing principles of command and control developed for "modern" prisons were applied to the "modern" school as well. I thought the game eerily demonstrated how similar prisons and schools look to one another. Both kinds of buildings are designed to limit access to the building and also egress.

There is a simple fact that schools can be glorified daycare so that workers can offload the burden of childcare. For this purpose, a prison makes sense. Despite not being the most humane considering the kids didn’t do any crime worthy of rehabilitation.

I think realizing that daycare with some level of adult supervision and guidance is the primary purpose of much of K-12 could allow us to design better schools that are more like kindergartens, recreation centers, laboratory facilities, art and performance studios, and libraries, and less like factories and prisons.

Though thinking about the factory bit, I do think that craft and maker facilities, as well as gardens and outdoor building areas, are nice to have in schools, making students the creators and crafters rather than the products.

Doesn't justify denying basic biological rights.

I am not sure how preventing them from vaping there and then would solve the root cause of the problem; they'll just vape later or learn to hide it better (and focus their resources on breaking the rules and getting away with it, as opposed to learning) and now they have an extra reason to be against you. Also, how is this problem dealt with during recess? Unless there’s someone monitoring them inside the bathroom or searching them to make sure they don’t bring any vaping products I don’t see how you can prevent someone from vaping inside a bathroom stall.

> where I've spent my break cleaning up chewing gum, spilled drinks and crumbs from students sneaking snacks

Why can't whoever made the mess be forced to clean it? That way the system would self-regulate. Those who enjoy their snacks cleanly can keep doing so, those who make a mess have to clean it up and have an incentive to not make a mess in the future if they want their snacks.

> how many of you "adults" have had to sign a code-of-conduct agreement before being allowed admittance to a tech conference or hackathon?

"Codes of conduct" are virtue signalling to appeal to some vocal minorities but I have yet to see evidence of it actually solving the real problem. Someone who wants to behave appropriately doesn't need one, and someone who wants to be a dick already intends to break the (unspoken) rules regardless of a CoC being in place.

I went to a public school that was most definitely not like this. My teachers were really invested in the students and often perform significant emotional labor for children who don't otherwise have supportive adult relationships. I went to many schools (moved a lot) and they all largely had teachers who were passionate about the well being of the children under their care. I had a very poor home life and having teachers who identified I was going into a suicidal spiral was very useful when I was a teenager.

A school building could provide maximum natural light to the occupants. For example, it could have shape and orientation so most of its windows get sunlight throughout the year. Interior spaces can have skylights and be used for short-duration activities like restrooms, locker rooms, and equipment storage.

1. School is not mandatory; education is mandatory. Ask any home schooler. A rare few private schools offer quite different experiences than the typical public school (e.g., the University of Chicago Laboratory Schools). This applies also to "closed confinement" and "control". Of course, opting out requires enlightened parenting and lots of resources.

2. You are constantly told what to do, but outside of some broad physical requirements there's really no forcing you to do what you're told. Choose some good coding/math/philosophy puzzles during the evening and work on them instead of paying attention in class. No one can control what you do in your head. You can similarly opt of almost all graded work; especially if you stick to AP courses then the grades you are assigned by the instructor you don't much matter anyways.

3. You are not given a choice in what your lectures cover, but you can choose what to learn and eschew any required "creativity"/"responsibility".

In other words, you can always choose not to play the game and still turn out just fine. Having a friend group that reinforces this option is helpful; I was part of one and today we're all very highly paid and well-educated professionals because -- not in spite of -- our complete disengagement from the high school game (including the academic component).

To any highschoolers reading this: if you find yourself intellectually dead and generally creeped out by high school culture, consider ignoring your coursework to study for a GED and then simply attending a nearby high school instead of college.

However, at least finish your freshman year somewhat engaged. Many aspects of American culture are easier to understand if you know how the vast majority of its citizens are socialized. E.g., many modern political rallies are intentionally choreographed to match the structure and emotional melody of a high school pep rally. Attending a few yourself as an open-minded and non-judgemental exercise in field anthropology will be helpful.

I never got to experience that again at school after I left the second grade.

I of course chose disobeying, but I'm pretty sure that the teacher would be far less strict in the future if I went the other route.

In the US, most prisons have an open, bare toilet in the cell shared by a few cell mates. Even if one can technically use it whenever, according to what @throwaway998662 says, in practice this means you can only crap during the 1-2 hours a day when your cell mate(s) are gone.

Yeah, you could get a capricious teacher that says "no" when you ask, but that doesn't seem like much in comparison to the degradation and potential for violence of using the toilet in prison...

I was a good kid!

If I had of robbed or killed someone and been to Juvenile Hall, my pants would probably have been dry.

There was one time a kid got denied wrongfully because the teacher thought he was part of a group that was causing trouble right before that. He had a half-empty Gatorade bottle in his backpack from lunch... he was sitting in the back of class and chugged it while the teacher wasn't looking. He then refilled it with a different yellow liquid, if you know what I mean. I'm a bit surprised the teacher didn't catch him and that nobody freaked out and snitched.

I substitute taught for a few years after college, and you can't leave the classroom at all except during your prep period. It was really bad some days.

As a contrast, at my school the policy was far more reasonable: you still needed permission to leave, but if you didn't abuse the privilege—using it every day, or disappearing for half the lesson—the teacher wouldn't give you any grief.

Uhm. Where in the world do you live?! :O

This story aired in TV and probably it's no longer the case. Also it likely bends the truth a bit, but nevertheless this is so unsettling and absurd that I wanted to share it.

Well it’s not like you have to be there at all, so no ones going to care why you get up and leave.

In grade school, every time someone asks permission to use the bathroom they stop the flow of the lesson and valuable time is lost. In college the idea is that most of the students are responsible enough to handle the bathroom and food.

This is a fairly reductive statement. Dealing with children is incredibly taxing and difficult. Teachers are [in my country] underpaid and under-appreciated and I believe this kind of rhetoric doesn’t do them justice. People began to appreciate teachers during the pandemic’s home schooling period, but that seems [anecdotally] to have dropped off since children have returned to regular schooling.

> when I hit college and realized "Hold on, I can just get up & go?."

Because you were [likely] an adult now who needs to be able to regulate their own behaviours. No surprise here.

Land isn't uniform, lots have shapes, roads already exist, utilities have to be connected, local construction requirements vary, existing structures have to be accounted for. You're likely not going to save money by forcing everyone to use the same 5 designs because that will just shift inefficiencies elsewhere -- where they're even more expensive. Unnecessarily moving earth or buying more property to fit the 5 mandatory designs is going to be way more expensive than simply building the structure to fit existing limitations.

I sometimes wonder if it’s down to a fundamentally different experience at schools in the US that I’m not aware of?

I feel like I went in one end of the school system, and then came out twelve years later able to read, write, play musical instruments, understand the natural world, think critically, use a computer, and generally having a wide variety of other skills. Teaching quality was mostly fine, with staff who seemed to be pretty engaged. I spent plenty of time outside school with both parents, and I came out with a bunch of skills and knowledge that neither of them would have been able to teach me. My experience was far from perfect, but it was a million miles away from being “a prison”.

The “school is a waste of time” argument seems to be popular in these circles. Is it down to cultural differences? Or maybe it’s just the iceberg tip of a deeper and more earnestly held view about a fundamental restructuring of society and childhood?

Money is just a currency. What they really love (and need), is all the goods and services that can be purchased by money, which include the things that keep their children and themselves alive.

But naked capitalism tells women to "lean in and earn $1 for every 70 cents" instead of telling men to "lean out and earn 70c for every $1" ...and spend more time with your children, family, contributing to open source software, learning science, an instrument, hobbies, sports and exercise and doing other things not valued by the market.

UBI is far superior to both a jobs guarantee, minimum wage laws and unions in rebalancing the power dynamic between the employees and employers.

Instead, today, we are brainwashed that your worth as an individual comes from working for a corporation, and the schools train the kids to sit down and shut up for 10 hours day to do just that. Look at Finland. Or http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=158