Chiropractors are bullshit (opens in new tab)

A reminder that the national organisation in the UK tried disastrously to censor articles like this through the libel laws:

https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chiropractic_Associat...

The author they tried to bankrupt was Simon Singh, author of Fermat's Last Theorem.

https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Singh

A "furious backlash" to the lawsuit resulted in the filing of formal complaints of false advertising against more than 500 individual chiropractors within one 24-hour period, with one national chiropractic organisation ordering its members to take down their websites, and Nature Medicine noting that the case had gathered wide support for Singh, as well as prompting calls for the reform of English libel laws

FWIW, after spending a year seeing some doctors and getting not even a friggen correct diagnosis for my in-the-end-not-actually-a-"back"-issue, I saw an osteopath (of all things, and he did, in fact, come off like a quack) who suggested I had what I had originally self-diagnosed myself with before seeing the doctors who convinced me otherwise--a sacroiliac joint dysfunction--and then (after wasting some thankfully-small amount of time with even more doctors again) finally went to see a chiropractor to get the specific adjustment all the studies I was reading (sadly, while lying on the floor of my apartment watching BoJack Horseman wishing I were dead as the pain had gotten so bad I could barely even sleep anymore) would simply immediately fix that kind of issue (but which was going to take ridiculously long to convince a physical therapist to do... like, I had even already done months and months of PT) and it was almost like night and day... I only needed to see him like three times over the course of a week (to let the inflamed tissue slowly start to heal correctly while I wore a sacroiliac belt to sleep) and I was essentially fixed. So, I totally appreciate chiropractors have a lot of woo-woo to them (mine included: he seemed to worship a bone in your neck that I am pretty sure doesn't do shit all), but frankly: doctors suck too and chiropractors ain't that bad :/. Like, seriously: I was diagnosed with mild scoliosis of my spine when I was a kid, and the chiropractor I saw was the only person who cared enough--even with my explicitly bringing up that hint--to figure out if I was standing crooked (which he admittedly did with a silly iPad camera app ;P)... shouldn't that be "table stakes"? It turned out I was (and that that fits the pattern of sacroiliac joint dysfunction). Had I just gone to see the chiropractor in the first place--as has been recommended by my (honestly also a bit woo-woo ;P) friends, and which I had turned my nose up at, as being anti-chiropractor is "cool"--I would have likely saved myself a year of pain and a number of secondary effects I accumulated (such as a ton of weight gain from being increasingly unable to move for a year), as I am very confident he would have just done that adjustment on me as a matter of course, and if not he definitely would have noticed how I was standing a bit crooked immediately (unlike any of the three doctors I saw ;P).

I've lived both sides of this. I once went to a chiropractor for back issues and he made me seriously worse and it took months to recover because what he thought just needed to be put in was actually a herniated disc.

Fast forward more than a decade and I have an amazing chiropractor. Every time I go there, I walk away feeling better, walking straighter, and in less pain. My daughter also goes there and the chiropractor has helped her tremendously with various issues.

If anything I think it's a shame that the quacks and the Good Guys can share the same title. But it's the same in any profession, isn't it?

It reminds me of the joke: What do you call a med student that graduates at the bottom of his class?

Doctor.

This article is full of weak proof and elitism. If one is to go back to the 1900s to critize how the practice is formed one must remember the state of medicine. He references this but only to cast a negative light chiropractors by linking them to a time when medicine practices lack the scientific base we have now.

This statement? "Who the hell peddles (real) medicine out of a kiosk"

It is so elitist it out of touch. Most chiropractors are not in mall kiosks.

My eye doctor is located in a mall.

He may be right but this rant didn't address that.

The historic scientific basis for chiropractors is total BS. The idea that everything stems from the spine, and if you get the spine and alignment, everything else will follow. Literally, a belief that you could, for example, cure cancer, by aligning the spine.

That’s no better than energy healing, and the idea that you have energy flows that get interrupted and need to be corrected by using a certain crystal.

Having said that, chiropractors can fix muscular skeletal issues, that the typical medical community often ignores.

My chiropractor anecdote is this: I was in college and I had a bad pain in my neck and jaw. It came out of nowhere, and lingered as an annoying pain. I went to the student health clinic, where the doctor promptly prescribed me antibiotics for 30 days. I took the antibiotics, and things sort of improved. But the pain never went away.

I went to a chiropractor, who gave me one, single adjustment. When he adjusted my neck, it hurt like heck. 24 hours later the pain was greatly diminished. 24 hours after that, the pain went away and I never felt it again.

There was no infection; the antibiotics did nothing. The relief I felt over 30 days was merely the healing of the body on its own. There was still something incorrect in my neck and jaw, and who knows if it ever would have resolved. The chiropractor fixed it in literally 30 seconds.

So, it’s a mixed bag. And certainly, I hope everyone criticizing chiropractic care is similarly critical of Western medicine, and dumb doctors like the one who simply threw antibiotics at me and sent me on my way.

One more thing, I’m a lawyer who does the occasional personal injury work. A lot of that industry is based on chiropractic care. And there are some over billing charlatans making bank doing that chiro care. I guess the bottom line is that I’m not willing to completely toss out chiro cares potential, but there are lots of bad actors.

I come from a long lineage of chiropractors (although I’m not one).

I’ve never been a big believer in the practice, and yes there are very rare cases where a chiropractic adjustment can lead to a stroke but again, it’s extremely rare. (Perhaps less rare if you’re going to the guy at the mall kiosk..)

I’d like to see some scientific studies proving chiropractic adjustments are harmful.

A lot of physical and mental health has to do with simply having awareness and being conscious of your body. For some people, going to a chiropractor monthly gives them 20 minutes in a room where their doing nothing but thinking of their body and talking about their body with the chiropractor.

Again, I’ve never been a big believer of the science behind it. But I am a believer that any activity that makes you sit down and think about your body and what you could be doing differently to reduce your aches/pains is likely to have some degree of positive outcome.

There are lots of links in the article and I didn’t click them all. But if there are actual studies showing damage (aside from 1 in a million adjustments causing a stroke), I would love to read them.

> I get it, you’re going to occasionally hear a friend say that chiropractic helped him de-clutter his alcove or do 87 sun salutations… but that’s an anecdote, and data is more important, and trustworthy than anecdotes. The data on chiropractic supports that the practice is nothing more than a collection of broken promises and fake medicine.

Anecdata doesn't matter is such a bleak worldview. Technocracy has huge gaps, from how people view, understand, and interpret data to collection and sorting practices. Anecdata helps tell the story of why things don't work or what we missed that does work. It helps us recognize gaps and improve. Technocracy and anecdata are a marriage you cannot rid yourself of because the human worldview, no matter how data rich is fallible.

This author takes issue with holistic medicine. I've heard this argument time and again about chiropractics due to its wonky history and some outlier practitioners. I've rarely run into chiropractors that have told me stuff that aligns with junk. On the other hand, I have ran into a number of Chiros that are more like DOs in the holistic things they ascribe to. I have run into chiropractors that were determined to remedy my issue (I have a crack in my lower column around my sciatic nerve). When the VA started prescribing me pills and couldn't find the crack after numerous MRIs and X-rays I found a chiropractor. When my leg would go numb and I would get shooting pain that put wells of tears in my eyes, he did x-rays, found it, cracked my back and alleviated enough pressure that I could walk. I knew and he reminded me that I had to lose weight, I had to increase my core strength, and I needed to take pride in living again.

I've had numerous people argue with me about what it is that they think he did that helped where the VA fell short and thought palliative care or spinal fusion was their only option. I speak to you with no spinal fusions, and I don't know the science of what he did, but I'm shocked at the audacity that people have to chalk all Chiros up as lunatics and snake oil salespeople.

My point is, it's important to speak concisely about problems, and I know it is difficult to in the moment, but "Chiropractors are bullshit" is on par with someone who has experienced the worst ends of technocracy saying, "Technocracy is bullshit".

Chiropractors frustrate me because they tend to treat symptoms - not root causes. You can get 'adjusted' a million times but if you have a muscle imbalance or perpetual tightness that is pulling something out alignment you will always fall back into that state.

For instance, if you sit for hours in the same funny position on your couch every night. Or if you tend to sit on one leg constantly. Or if you sleep in the same funny position all the time and create tightness in your neck.

I would love to have a practitioner look at my entire musculoskeletal system in order identify the specific areas that need work - the linchpin in the entire imbalance. There is a concept called referred pain - which means that sometimes pain in one part of your body is actually caused by an issue somewhere completely different.

Some anecdotal evidence: I went to a chiropractor when I was first starting out as a programmer because the base of my neck was in a lot of pain from staring at the monitor. I didn’t get the whole “adjustment“ thing but putting me on a tens unit with a hot compress really did the trick.

I had a friend who had back pain. Went to a chiropractor. He took xrays and did adjustments. For about a year and a half he did this. The doctor continued to take x-rays to show that he was improving internally!

Then one day, he was in such severe pain his wife called an ambulance who took him to the ER. He had lung cancer that had metastasized. The chiropractor completely missed the very obvious cancer on the xray which the ER spotted quickly.

He died a few months later. It was too late for any realistic attempt at treatment.

Always see a real MD first.

For a good laugh, check out the Wikipedia talk page where people contest whether 'chiropractic' deserves to be called pseudoscience. [0] I particularly enjoyed someone pointing out that These are in-universe sources.

For all Wikipedia's flaws, it does a good job of talking straight about this kind of thing.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chiropractic

We should invent the name for the aspects that are not bullshit, then. Some of the things they do are objectively helping some people in some cases. Gatekeeping medicine is important, but it can also become just that, gatekeeping

What are HNers thoughts about public chiropractors that record and publish their treatments and results?

I still remember Ian Rossborough (even though he got suspended after adjusting a baby) and his famous video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpNcnM0FkTM

making a boy walk straight in 10 days.

Honest question, is this a stunt? Scam? Fake? Magic? Bullshit?

Bottom line for me is that a chiropractor does aid short term in my experience. After a few sessions, I feel much more mobile and flexible and less stiff. Does this hold out in the long run? No. Is this placebo and the "feel good" sensation just makes me thing it helps? Probably. Does that "probably" actually make a noticeable difference to me? Yes.

I've only done it for about 6-9 sessions at a time, and with years between revisits. It's the same effect, for me, as a massage therapist. For a while after the therapy, I feel great.

I don't look at chiropractors or massage therapists as a cure for anything. It's just an experience that feels good and has short term lasting effects that have been worth the cost to me.

I work a hands on job involving climbing, crawling, pulling or lifting up to 150kg or 330lbs, and various other physically strenuous activities, as well as sitting at a desk. So the benefits may greatly differ for me than that of an average person.

I play a lot of hockey and in my younger more competitive years I took a very hard hit to my shoulder that severely dislocated my AC joint.

After seeing a couple doctors, they told me I had many months of recovery ahead, probably surgery to fix it. It made no sense to me, no one would touch this huge bump on my shoulder unless they went to cut me open, which would be significant healing time.

I went to a local myopractor on a recommendation, not quite a chiropractor, but along the same vein. They massaged my upper back and shoulder and set my shoulder in first visit, then scolded me for waiting so long to do it in the first place. They had me come back a few more times to monitor it and reset it if need be, and I was back on the ice in 4 weeks.

That was 20 years ago, I weekly see a myopractor now, and I credit them for keeping my adrenaline junky banged up 40 year old body together in good enough condition to keep doing the crazy stuff.

Depends on the type of chiropractor you go to. Obviously the "I can cure IBS by re-aligning your spine" types are bullshit, but some of them are basically a combination of a masseuse and physical therapist. People I knew in the military were regularly referred to chiropractors as part of recovering from an injury.

All the comments here simply show the very poor state of science education.

Everyone should read this book and then reevaluate comments about chiropractors.

The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0345409469/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm...

And I’m not throwing shade. It’s not any single persons fault or a comment on character. I really do believe there’s a systemic problem with our education system. The reason chiropracty causes this to stand out is that it very successfully flaunts the scientific method and is still accepted at large (for reasons I won’t start going into, but most of which are covered in the book)

I knew an osteopath in Tulsa. I asked him about the popping thing and he gave me a straight answer (I think). He said you have a fluid sealed into your joints and like all fluids in your body, there are gases dissolved in it. If you distort the joint enough these gases will pop out of solution, like opening a can of soda or a bottle of champagne. This pop is quite forceful and stimulates nerve endings around the joint which produces (temporarily) localized muscle relaxation and a mild analgesic effect. That's why it feels better. And it takes time for the gases to be reabsorbed which is why you have to wait before you can pop the joint again. And yes, the rest is essentially bullshit...

I hurt my back moving a friend, went to a chiropractor for two weeks. Im not sure if it wad a pinched nerve or what but the pain was excruciating when transitioning from standing to sitting and vice versa. On my 4th visit the pain was still there but the chiropractor put me on the table positined me on my side with my arms arcross my chest and knees bent and amazingly he pushed down and the pain dissapeared instantly.

So I might be an outlier but can attest that a chiropractor fixed my back pain, I was 100% pain free and never needed to go back.

Please watch this video of a guy with severe kyphosis that modern medicine would perhaps not have much of a solution except PT and maybe a permanent back brace:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oObKPX8beeM

Then watch part 2:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vu96FNLZs

That's been obvious to me since I was about 14 yo, roughly 30 years. They're like fortune tellers, financial advisors, osteopathic "medicine" DO's, faith healers, life coaches, water diviners, cryogenics, solar freakin roadways, and "alternative" medicine.

People will believe in anything, especially false hope for the impossible, saving a buck, or a shortcut.

I am personally mesmerized by the aligment youtube videos. It is touching to see someone barely able to walk and after a series of adjustments able to walk normally. I didn't even knew there was a sentiment that these adjustments were 'pseudoscience'. The guys doing it seemed pretty knowledgable with X-Rays and stuff. I always thought of it as a complementary medicine.

my bff is a chiropractor which made me realize that not all of them are shills. he grew up in athletic training and sports medicine and is adamant that he shouldn't be seeing patients for more than a visit or two to mainly make sure the patient is not ignoring something that needs an ortho surgeon and to teach home rehab exercises for recovery...

but.. i live in chiropractor hell in northern indiana.. the number of chiropractors here are absurd. and one of the things they utilize is a body heat imaging scan to determine if patients have: cancer, colitis, celiac's and a world of other stuff.. that they cant actually detect.. this has raised a generation of women that won't get mammograms because of the evil radiation.

on the other hand, my wife is a breast cancer surgeon and business is good here.

NFL/NBA uses chiropractors; that's enough testimonial for me.

At best, Chiropractors are bullshit. At worst, they kill or paralyze people.

Their manipulations offer temporary pain relief because they forcefully mobilize the joint/bone structure. The only way to fix this long term is by correcting the muscle imbalances through physical therapy. Most people would rather get immediate pain relief vs months of therapy and exercise, so they have a constant supply of victims.

Chiropractic care should be outlawed as snake oil or health plans should stop covering it.

What about Osteopaths?

Might want a (2017) tag on this.

I had an interesting run-in with a chiropractor. Toward the end of winter 2017 there was a freak snow storm in the north east. 2 feet of heavy snow fell in 24 hours. I had an undiagnosed shoulder injury I was compensating for from hard falls downhill biking and 20 years of drumming. I didn't realize at the time as I ran the snow blower pushing and lifting it, I was doing critical damage to my spine. C5, C6 & C7 were bulging and getting herniated, impeding on nerves that control my left back arm and hand.

Over the next two weeks my left back shoulder forearm and hand would vary in sensation from complete numbness to random spasms to extreme pain like fire or bursting open. I lost muscle and my back shoulder and arm began to atrophy.

In NYC it's tough to get to see a doctor without an appointment unless you're loaded. I'm not but I was willing to bleed my life savings to get some relief. I went to lots of doctors, paying cash, just to get someone to help. They barely looked at me and never touched me. An x-ray showed no broken bones so they prescribed muscle relaxers. Nothing they did would address the underlying issue or actually do anything beyond postponing even worse bigger issues to deal with later.

I started going to acupuncture. $200 dollars a pop. Laying on the table was excruciating. I couldn't feel the needles at all. The acupuncturist eventually would push needles all the way through various muscles with no effect. Then we tried "cupping", it looked awesome/gruesome. Since the needle pokes weren't working she recommended chiro.

This is were things get interesting. I'm on the chiro table, he walked in and takes one look at me "Whoa, what did you do?!" He could see my shoulder was not aligned. I felt so relieved that someone finally could see my injury and immediately. I thought I was in good hands. He started to manipulate me. "Did you have a previous injury? Your shoulder has partial subluxation. Your c5,c6,c7 are out of alignment. That's strange." Then he said he was going to fix my shoulder. "You'll feel a lot of pressure. That's weird it popped out again. You may should go to the ER." I now I realize I went in to shock. Everything after was a blur. I remember him saying things but I don't know what. I ended up in NYU ER. My entire arm felt like was opened and dissected and lit on fire. It was a busy day and the waiting room had a triage tent setup. I wasn't dying and blood was flowing to my arm so I sat there for three hours. They finally gave me a valium. The pain stopped. As I left, the ER staff begged me to stay. I got in a taxi and went home. The valium made me feel great, like a cloud; soft and fluffy. (BTW that ER visit "not a bill" was for $5,500... I never saw specialist or got any imaging. Just a valium.) The day after I felt like I lost a fight and got my left side kicked in. Weeks later I saw a neurologist, I had an MRI, It turns out my c567 were in fact bulging. But the chiro should not have manipulated me without imaging.

This is my back in May of that year. https://imgur.com/a/LA1emY8

I worked with PT and regained 100% use and strength even better than pre-injury, however as of today my thumb, index and middle finger are numb, I presume due to the extreme manipulation in the chiropractors office.

Do they even exist outside of north America?

I've had whiplash twice. A chiropractor did pretty good at straightening that out.

Do I trust the new-age-ish stuff that they offer? No. Do I trust them to straighten my spine? Yes. At least, I trust the one I have.

I hadn't heard of the term 'chiropractors' until our family moved into the suburban parts of the US. The other fancy shops that surprised me by their existence were these healing crystal stores and astrologers and whatnot. Eww.

I mean it is downright unacceptable these days.

Of course chiropractors are bullshitters. That’s obvious to anyone with any training in science. And also most of psychology/psychiatry is bullshit, especially the pharmaceutical side. In general, humans wanting to believe that all serious problems have medical/pharmaceutical solutions leads to a large amount of bullshit in the minds of people who have the education to do better.

The author uses the fact that Chiropractic was started with inspiration from the spiritual world as evidence of quackery and says they are surprised that chiropractors are allowed to practice. And yet ... We allow many organisations which specifically say that taking directly to non-physical beings will solve your problems. So this bullshit is far less surprising than the direct and common bullshit we tolerate every day.