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0 pointslelanthran4y ago0 comments

> People are free to retain professional connections with this person.

Only if they want to also be mobbed. I did say earlier that the mob ensures ostracization via fear.

There is nothing redeeming or respectable about being in a mob, but the current cancel culture is attempting to overturn generations of social norms by trying to portray mobbing and witch-hunting as the moral high-ground.

Believe me, no matter how many big words are used to philosophize about the moral superiority of mobbing, at the end of the day the mobbers are no different to any other mobbers.

> But because sexual assault is in fact a crime, people move the goalposts: now, for someone to face social and commercial consequences, they need to first be found guilty in a court of law.

Well, yes. It's much more serious to be a criminal than a non-criminal. You are equivocating non-criminal acts with actual criminal acts and then appear surprised that for accusations of actual criminal acts people require evidence.

It's not shades of gray - there's a thick and visible line between "He's a criminal" and "he has different opinions to me".

You're damn right - for someone to face serious consequences, there had better be evidence that convinces a court that the person committed the crime of which they are accused.

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tptacek4y ago

I don't think this response is very coherent. As I pointed out, you can face the same "serious" consequence simply for calling someone a bad name. What you're saying would make sense if we were discussing convicting him of a crime, but that's not what we're talking about; instead, his defenders are moving the goalposts, so that we use the standards of evidence of criminal conviction and imprisonment to enforce standards of social and commercial behavior. That doesn't make sense, sorry.

lelanthranOP4y ago

> coherent

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

> instead, his defenders are moving the goalposts, so that we use the standards of evidence of criminal conviction and imprisonment to enforce standards of social and commercial behavior.

No goalposts are being moved. The "defenders" as you put it, are simply saying "You are accusing that person of a crime. Where's your evidence?"

We're literally at the point where you appear to be claiming that asking for evidence is "moving the goalposts".

tptacek4y ago

Not coherent, in that it doesn't cohere. For instance: your argument accepts implicitly the fact that you can be fired just for being a jerk (as happens every day in every field), or otherwise hard to work with. But if someone commits an actual sexual assault, an organization seeking to terminate them assumes a heightened burden of proof. That doesn't make sense.

The fact is, nobody is required to meet a standard of proof to choose not to associate with this person. You can keep associating with them if you'd like.

An irony here is that the law actually provides this person with a tool, if people have stopped associating with him commercially because of false statements of purported fact ("he groped someone", or "he attempted to have sex with someone too intoxicated to consent" certainly qualifies, per se in fact, as both are crimes): he can sue for defamation.

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0 pointslelanthran4y ago0 comments

> People are free to retain professional connections with this person.

Only if they want to also be mobbed. I did say earlier that the mob ensures ostracization via fear.

Believe me, no matter how many big words are used to philosophize about the moral superiority of mobbing, at the end of the day the mobbers are no different to any other mobbers.

> But because sexual assault is in fact a crime, people move the goalposts: now, for someone to face social and commercial consequences, they need to first be found guilty in a court of law.

It's not shades of gray - there's a thick and visible line between "He's a criminal" and "he has different opinions to me".

You're damn right - for someone to face serious consequences, there had better be evidence that convinces a court that the person committed the crime of which they are accused.

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tptacek4y ago

lelanthranOP4y ago

> coherent

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

> instead, his defenders are moving the goalposts, so that we use the standards of evidence of criminal conviction and imprisonment to enforce standards of social and commercial behavior.

No goalposts are being moved. The "defenders" as you put it, are simply saying "You are accusing that person of a crime. Where's your evidence?"

We're literally at the point where you appear to be claiming that asking for evidence is "moving the goalposts".

tptacek4y ago

The fact is, nobody is required to meet a standard of proof to choose not to associate with this person. You can keep associating with them if you'd like.

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