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0 pointsChrisMarshallNY4y ago0 comments

Oh, yeah...one last thing, before I go...

I'm a unique talent. I'm not God's gift to Programming, but I have a very different kind of backstory from most that you find. I had a hard road, and the uneven terrain that I traveled, has a lot to do with how I became as good as I am. When no one gives you breaks, you are forced to make your own, prove yourself, at every step, and accomplishment becomes habitual. You learn not to overpromise, figure out how to learn new stuff, and check your own homework.

Many of the team I led, had similar eclectic backgrounds. They were all senior-level C++ algorithm developers, with decades of experience. Most were smarter and better than I am.

We all would have been immediately rejected, in barbarous fashion, from today's hiring process.

As it turns out, they have all gone on to do very well, and that makes me happy. I am glad to have been a part of their career. Working with them was a signal honor. They are making their new employers quite happy, indeed, but it took each of them over two years (in a couple of cases, well over two years), to really land, which is quite telling.

In my first three jobs, I never worked with one single engineer that had actually had real software training. I worked with astrophysicists, mathematicians, MBAs, chemists, designers, economists, teachers, electrical engineers, and even other high school dropouts, like me. Even my last, long-term job, was mostly with EEs and physicists, but all the Japanese folks had serious sheepskins. It was a fairly marquée corporation.

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engmgrmgr4y ago

Sorry, need to call BS for all the impressionable young readers.

The job of ‘programmer’ takes on many shapes and sizes. Businesses evolve and are different from one another.

You may be very successful in some clusters of business, but how representative is this, let alone your unique experience, to the rest of the industry?

If you’ve never worked with anyone with “real” software training, why would I hire you into a senior position when there are plenty of candidates who have?

I’ve worked at companies back in the day where experienced non traditional programmers have both kick started and ruined businesses within the same job. You may be successful enough to grow a business, but that’s different from scaling or pivoting one.

If you can’t grok a homework program from the first week of a data structures course, why should I trust you to self learn more advanced topics? Why would I spend a ton of time evaluating massive GitHub contributions vs. just watching you code a problem your team would work on for 1 hour?

I have to pay smug kids 100s of g’s because the labor market is so fucked, and there’s no way I’d either trust them to evaluate candidates via code review, nor would I spend their time on that vs. building and learning.

I’d love to not pay children small fortunes, but most very experienced journeymen I’ve interviewed over the years can’t string together dynamic api calls or tell me how things scale, and I get to hire for experience first every time.

If you were able to self teach, then the kid that just spent 4 years snorting adderall and interning and google sure as hell has a chance to, too, and he’s willing to solve my dumb riddles.

The other thing you won’t read: firing people for most managers is awful. A manager only takes so many risks before they learn how to mitigate having to experience this horrible experience. I’d rather reject you than fire you.

Edit: I was one of the impressionable young readers once upon a time, and I set myself back quite a bit taking advice from strangers on the internet. Genius programmers on GitHub don’t sign your paychecks.

ChrisMarshallNYOP4y ago

You…um…do realize that I wasn’t giving advice to “impressionable young readers,” right?

I was merely recounting my own personal experience, and, a bit more cautiously, opinions. I say “cautiously,” because I know that opinion is a different thing from fact, and I need to be careful to avoid presenting my opinions in a manner that frames them as “facts.” In another thread, I needed to do a mea culpa, where I did just that, and was [rightly] called out for it[0].

No BS at all. It actually happened. Are you calling me a liar? Because that is what it appears to be, and I was under the impression that we don’t do that kind of thing, here. One of my personal postures, is that I stand behind my own words. Please note that I have links to my entire portfolio, and many, many ways to back up (or refute) what I say. I deleted my last anonymous posting account, years ago.

One of the issues that I have, with today’s Internets Tubes, is that people like to anonymously spew out opinion as fact, and take every opportunity they can, to insult and demean others. I make every effort to avoid that, in my own interactions. Feel free to go through my posting history, and show me otherwise. If I am wrong, I live a lifestyle, where I am required to promptly admit it, and make amends. I believe that I do this.

I have merely written my own experiences and personal story.

It makes me very, very glad to know that I never have to put myself into a position again, where certain types of folks have power over me. I am quite aware that my own story is different from the run of the mill, but being called a liar for telling it, is beyond the pale.

This new world seems dark and depressing, to me. A Lovecraftian “food chain” world, where everyone is constantly battling everyone else; including their own teammates. I used to look forward to a career of excitement, adventure, learning, and being a member of teams, where I was the dumbest member, and it was an honor to be included. I have never been interested in competing with others. I have always wanted to collaborate with others. I am rather saddened to learn how unique this approach is.

In a lot of ways, I got that, and I’m grateful, but I now see that I probably dodged a bullet.

If there were anything I would say to “impressionable young readers,” it would be:

    At one time, some of us looked forward to careers that were not gladiatorial arenas. We woke up, every day, anticipating learning new stuff, and felt honored to be part of a team, composed of people that humbled us, but never humiliated us. We made enough to have a comfortable living, never worried about putting food on the table, and didn’t have envy for our coworkers. We didn’t measure our own self-worth, by demeaning others, and we felt as if we were riding the crest of thrilling new discoveries and technologies. We stayed at companies for many years, because we believed in the aggregate mission, and liked the idea that we were making a positive difference in the world. We became lousy interviewees, because it was an unnecessary skill. We never “hazed” one another, and embraced our differences, as they brought new perspectives into our worlds, challenging us to constantly review our own opinions and worldviews.

    There was, once, a happier time, before The Great Old Ones burst through the portal, and made the world as it is, today. I lived in that time, and am reporting from *experience*.

Damn. Did it again. Forgot to give advice, and only gave experience. I feel very, very fortunate to have had mine. Reading the experiences of others, reinforces this gratitude. I do believe that living a life of Gratitude has helped me, in many ways. I also believe that it has helped others, in my orbit, as well. I’m told that I was a pretty good manager, and I have done a significant amount of unpaid Service work (see: Portfolio).

If merely recounting my own experience and personal worldview is considered a threat, I have no words, other than I truly feel badly for others.

Now, I truly am done with this thread. Have a great day! I sincerely wish you and your family, health, success, happiness, and fulfillment, in all your affairs.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28442939

engmgrmgr4y ago

You are taking a very active role in discourse in a public medium. This isn’t your personal blog, so you’re intentionally broadcasting your experiences to anyone and everyone.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

engmgrmgr4y ago

Sorry, need to call BS for all the impressionable young readers.

The job of ‘programmer’ takes on many shapes and sizes. Businesses evolve and are different from one another.

You may be very successful in some clusters of business, but how representative is this, let alone your unique experience, to the rest of the industry?

If you’ve never worked with anyone with “real” software training, why would I hire you into a senior position when there are plenty of candidates who have?

If you were able to self teach, then the kid that just spent 4 years snorting adderall and interning and google sure as hell has a chance to, too, and he’s willing to solve my dumb riddles.

ChrisMarshallNYOP4y ago

You…um…do realize that I wasn’t giving advice to “impressionable young readers,” right?

I have merely written my own experiences and personal story.

In a lot of ways, I got that, and I’m grateful, but I now see that I probably dodged a bullet.

If there were anything I would say to “impressionable young readers,” it would be:

    At one time, some of us looked forward to careers that were not gladiatorial arenas. We woke up, every day, anticipating learning new stuff, and felt honored to be part of a team, composed of people that humbled us, but never humiliated us. We made enough to have a comfortable living, never worried about putting food on the table, and didn’t have envy for our coworkers. We didn’t measure our own self-worth, by demeaning others, and we felt as if we were riding the crest of thrilling new discoveries and technologies. We stayed at companies for many years, because we believed in the aggregate mission, and liked the idea that we were making a positive difference in the world. We became lousy interviewees, because it was an unnecessary skill. We never “hazed” one another, and embraced our differences, as they brought new perspectives into our worlds, challenging us to constantly review our own opinions and worldviews.

    There was, once, a happier time, before The Great Old Ones burst through the portal, and made the world as it is, today. I lived in that time, and am reporting from *experience*.

If merely recounting my own experience and personal worldview is considered a threat, I have no words, other than I truly feel badly for others.

Now, I truly am done with this thread. Have a great day! I sincerely wish you and your family, health, success, happiness, and fulfillment, in all your affairs.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28442939

engmgrmgr4y ago

You are taking a very active role in discourse in a public medium. This isn’t your personal blog, so you’re intentionally broadcasting your experiences to anyone and everyone.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse