Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids? (pt2)

If you want to attempt to be wealthy, California. If you want to maximize for quality of life, Germany. Strong support systems in the early years of having children is highly underrated, and there is a reason people expat to Europe when they can afford to.

I'm chiming in again here... Germany 100%. Do you want your kids to live with the elevated risk of getting shot, school shooter drills as casual as fire drills, and then the prospect of the principal of the school being insane and getting one of those surprise active shooter simulation drills? I'm lookin at the situation as it only being a matter of time before a TEACHER snaps and starts bucking away kids with a shotgun after being called a funny name one too many times. That alone would influence my decision to keep my family out of the USA.

Background on me: I am French, I've been living in the Bay Area for the past 14 years, a 2-year old and another on the way, we are recent home owners and grandma lives and helps us every day.

California is expensive. The Bay Area where you'd find high paying jobs is even more expensive. Rent is expensive, home ownership is nearly inaccessible, cost of daycare and healthcare is high, great schools are expensive and taxes are high.

I didn't do the exact math but to give you a ballpark, for us to live well, eat well, save for the future and travel (ski trips or visit family in France), we'd need to earn a combined yearly salary of over $300,000. I think for a household with 2 parents working as SWE it's doable.

That said, based on seniority, your household could probably reach over $200,000 working from Bavaria.

I frequently think about going back but our decision is mostly a factor of the kids growing up around family, in an environment that's empowering them and with great weather. Rain and green pasture sure is pretty but I prefer the sun.

Tricky situation, I'm biased towards EU but I'd say Germany just because you have kids.

> What about quality of life and career prospects in Germany? Anyone living there have any insights?

I am not a parent. So I can't say much about that. But economically you will be better off in CA than in Germany anywhere. Yes those kind of jobs exist in Germany but they are very rare. Also lot of money goes out of the pocket towards taxes, health and social security. German housing, especially in big cities like Berlin, Munich etc isn't any cheap either. I suppose since you both are working, you will jointly make enough to afford housing. Finding apartment to rent is hard and expensive.

On the other hand, yes you get good WLB in Germany with vacations ~25-30 days/year range. But I see more and more companies in US are stressing on WLB with unlimited PTO. So you have the possibility of not sacrificing your income at the expense of better benefits/WLB in US. You do have better public transportation in most of the bigger German cities.

If you decide to buy a house you will most probably live outside of any big German city. So the benefit of having good public transportation is also minimized since you will have to own a car. There are buses which connect German suburbs to the city but not often. Still further you move away from the city to suburbs, lesser the frequency of such public transportation.

Based on where you decide to live the appointments with specialist doctors can take quite a long time - like 3-4 months isn't uncommon in bigger cities. It might be faster if you are living in smaller towns.

Finally it's hard to integrate in German society whether it's the difficulty of language or how close knit Germans are. I think this holds for even Netherlands and even large part of Europe. I have never lived in USA but from what I have heard it's bit easier to fit in America than Europe.

I grew up in Germany and worked there for eight years, now I'm in California for 15 years. Now that I had children, I'm contemplating moving back, possibly to Zurich, which would allow me to maintain a comparable level of income.

The main thing that's holding me back is the support my wife's parents who live close by are giving us. Without them, navigating the daycare landscape is difficult and extremely expensive. So that would be a huge plus for Germany in your case. In terms of career, California has the obvious advantage, although that advantage is not as strong in Sacramento and San Diego as it would be in the SF Bay Area.

So it all depends on what you value and what your gut feeling says. How do you like Amsterdam?

Another thing to consider: If you have two options and both have strong pros so that it's difficult to decide between them, then either choice will be fine.

If you can, stay in the Netherlands. Of the three locations it provides the best quality of life. If not, urban Germany would still be better than California.

Move to Cali, put your kids in a German language immersion school, make and save as much as possible for 3 years, then move back to Germany.

Why not both? I have neighbors - based in CA- who annually visit family in Germany for months at a time. They get long periods of grandparent help, their kids are fluent in German, and they get CA salaries (and costs of living). Given how remote-work friendly many companies are this is more doable than ever.

You're probably aware, but just in case...: If you're not a near-native German speaker, having a career and social life in Bavaria are likely very tricky. My guess is that it's an order of magnitude to tougher than in the Netherlands. (I'm German and have non-German friends living in Munich.)

I'm a Brit. I lived in Germany 10 years, now I'm in San Diego (been in the US 12 years).

Life is good, but I miss Germany. More than I miss England. I don't regret leaving as we had our reasons, but if we had stayed, well... I think life would be better, more enriching. Screw the money.

Car centered suburbia is a nightmare of living in parts of the US for teenagers. You can't visit your friends without having someone pick/drop you. Not an immediate concern for you, but just something to consider.

Would you be less likely to be laid off in Germany?

I used to live in Germany (as a student) before having kids, and now I live in California with kids (around Sacramento), so I'll give my perspective.

It's a tradeoff of money vs family-friendliness.

Germany is definitely more kid-friendly and provides a lot of stuff (events, museums, walking trails, etc) that is found in much lower quantities in California. I've taken my children to Germany a couple of times, and I was always pleasantly surprised at how many things there were for them to do.

The salaries are definitely higher in the US. I don't want to go anywhere near the Bay Area or San Diego due to the cost of living not making the salary increase worth it, so I currently have a remote job with a company based in Mountain View (a fairly small company), but costs of childcare and tertiary education are far higher here than in Germany. When I lived in Germany, the higher education costs were something like $80 a semester, but I hear they've done away with all fees since then.

In Germany, you get a lot more services and a good quality of life, but the salaries are quite low. They're a little higher than the Netherlands on average, but still quite low in comparison to the US.

One thing you may want to consider is that any form of childcare in California is enormously expensive. During the pandemic, a lot of childcare providers went out of business, and the ones that remain are all understaffed. So now childcare spots are difficult to find and very, very expensive. So expensive in fact, that typically most of the salary from one of the parents will go towards childcare.

Housing is really expensive all over the US, and very much so in California. It's hard to afford anything around Sacramento, and it's a lot cheaper than the Bay Area, Los Angeles, or San Diego. I get the impression from the occasional browsing of German real estate that houses are not cheap there either, so I'm not sure which is the better option. I bought my house in late 2008 after housing prices collapsed. I wouldn't be able to afford what I have with current prices.

Having spent some time in small villages in Germany, they are very non-diverse, if that's an issue for you. My kids go to a school with a great deal of diversity. German cities of a decent size tend to be fairly diverse.

I hear the practices of German primary and secondary schools can be hard to learn for those who didn't grow up there, but your wife should already know what's going on, since presumably she grew up there.

Another aspect of life in California that has changed since you left are the almost constant droughts and wildfires. It's way worse now. It used to be rare to see smoke from wildfires in the Sacramento area, but now it's quite common and the air is usually filthy in summer and early fall. In 2020, it got so bad that we had to stay inside for 3 weeks straight and there was ash falling everywhere, even though the nearest fire was at least 150 miles away. 2021 was a little better, but there were times we couldn't go outside because the smoke was so heavy. It's fairly similar all over the state.

Healthcare is way more affordable in Germany and the Netherlands and that is a big plus for me.

We are personally planning to move out of California due to some of these issues. If it weren't for my disabled stepson who is over 18, we'd probably go for Germany or the Netherlands due to the improved quality of life. I have no idea if my kids will be able to afford healthcare when they are old enough to work and I have no idea what their college costs will be.

I advise going to Germany. The salaries are not ideal, but I think that your family would have a better quality of life. Family support is very nice to have.

I don't know how common remote positions are in Germany nowadays. I have seen remote job advertisements that are EU-wide and I have interviewed with companies who hire all over the globe. A US company that is willing to hire from EU countries would be your best bet for getting a better salary, but those jobs aren't the easiest to find.

I don't know where in Bavaria you would be living, but it may be possible to commute to a larger city like Munich (train is the easiest way of commuting, if available), which has a lot of IT-related jobs. The salaries there are higher, but so is the cost of living.

Obviously california

Let me change your perspective.

How about where you fit better?

Think about:

1. You want to call a friend to drink coffee chat? Which place is better?

2. Your kid is going to school and later do university? Which place is better?

3. Kid is sick and you need a hand where it would be better?

In Europe you will be low middle class for at least 10 years and then middle class for the rest. Considering US standards.

There is no mobility in Europe and even if you are promoted taxes will take care of that.

US is more like a "A la carté" menu. You pay what you ask for. Europe is like a free refill buffet.

It is not only about compensation but how you do perceive freedom, social family and future.

Hope that helps