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0 pointsido3y ago0 comments

Maybe they do, maybe not? I mean that is exactly the same argument SFBA-based engineers can also claim. I believe it is mostly untrue.

When I studied in Vienna a fellow student of mine returned to Poland after uni because his wife wanted to & we both started our first jobs as juniors at the same time with comparable positions, me in Vienna and him in Gdansk. His salary was almost exactly 1/3 of mine & I don't believe there was any performance component to that, I was simply earning according to Viennese standards and he according to Gdansk standards.

0 comments

moonchrome3y ago

In more recent times (especially post COVID), by the time both of you are competent enough be independent he will be earning as much as you for 1/3 cost of living.

idoOP3y ago

Cost of living in Poland is not actually 1/3 of Austria, the difference in cost is much smaller than in salary. But it's true that the more senior you are the less geography affects your wage.

moonchrome3y ago

Austria != Vienna, similar to how London != UK.

Equating for standard of living (eg upper middle class) you'll likely be 3x in Vienna. Although I'm just guestinating on Gdansk, maybe it's a really expensive place.

3 more replies

9887473y ago

How long ago was that? Are you guys still in touch? Because it seems to me that recently developer salaries in Poland matched or even surpassed those in Austria :)

idoOP3y ago

It was maybe 15 years ago, but today instead of Poland it would be some poor Asian country. My point is that it's not just that Europeans earn less than Americans, they also earn more than other regions. If you want fairness that also applies to people under you, not just people above you.

sealeck3y ago

I don't think this is likely to be true at a population level; Austria is a much richer country than Poland; has a much higher standard of education and in other sectors salaries are usually higher in Austria than Poland.

V-23y ago

What exactly implies Austria has a "much higher standard of education" than Poland?

For example in the most recent PISA rating the average score of mathematics, science and reading is 513 for Poland (11th in the world) and 491 for Austria (28th place).

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BossingAround3y ago

From my experience, it's more the culture rather than education that forms "suboptimal" engineers. After all, engineers mostly learn from online resources in English anyways, so the quality of formal education doesn't come to play that much (and for the record, I don't really believe that the top tech uni in Vienna is leaps and bounds better than the top tech uni in Krakow).

It's the work culture in smaller cities that'll probably make the population differences.

9887473y ago

Agree that this isn't likely to be true at population level - I was talking about Software Developers specifically.

Disagree on "much higher standard of education" - even if Austria comes on top, it's just barely, not by a lot.

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rocgf3y ago

Your example is anectodal, hence basically worthless.

There is a lot of inefficieny in the market, some of it inherent, some of it due to artifical constraints like location, but over time those tend to naturally get normalized. What I'm trying to say is that if it really were better for software to be built in Vietnam for 10% of the cost, that would just happen.

It may be that companies have not figured out this neat trick or it might be that there are some inherent issues with developing software based purely on the cost.

idoOP3y ago

My point was that this applies exactly the same for why European salaries are lower than American salaries. It makes no sense but it equally doesn't make sense that Europeans earn more than Asians or Africans. If you want equality it doesn't just mean you get to equalize with the top end, it also means the bottom gets to equalize with you.

sealeck3y ago

lmao the free market does not exist.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

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moonchrome3y ago

In more recent times (especially post COVID), by the time both of you are competent enough be independent he will be earning as much as you for 1/3 cost of living.

idoOP3y ago

Cost of living in Poland is not actually 1/3 of Austria, the difference in cost is much smaller than in salary. But it's true that the more senior you are the less geography affects your wage.

moonchrome3y ago

Austria != Vienna, similar to how London != UK.

Equating for standard of living (eg upper middle class) you'll likely be 3x in Vienna. Although I'm just guestinating on Gdansk, maybe it's a really expensive place.

3 more replies

9887473y ago

How long ago was that? Are you guys still in touch? Because it seems to me that recently developer salaries in Poland matched or even surpassed those in Austria :)

idoOP3y ago

sealeck3y ago

V-23y ago

What exactly implies Austria has a "much higher standard of education" than Poland?

For example in the most recent PISA rating the average score of mathematics, science and reading is 513 for Poland (11th in the world) and 491 for Austria (28th place).

1 more reply

BossingAround3y ago

It's the work culture in smaller cities that'll probably make the population differences.

9887473y ago

Agree that this isn't likely to be true at population level - I was talking about Software Developers specifically.

Disagree on "much higher standard of education" - even if Austria comes on top, it's just barely, not by a lot.

1 more reply

rocgf3y ago

Your example is anectodal, hence basically worthless.

It may be that companies have not figured out this neat trick or it might be that there are some inherent issues with developing software based purely on the cost.

idoOP3y ago

sealeck3y ago

lmao the free market does not exist.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse