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0 pointsbryanrasmussen3y ago0 comments

>In ancient times, right until the attacks by Islamist marauders and "civilized" Britishers, none of what you have mentioned were an issue.

My assumption, when applied to India, would be that it would be an issue for the untouchables caste?

>If you are not aware, this was how most of the world lived. Lower class was the norm. We are now living in an age of disproportionate luxury.

Even so it still seems unlikely that every member of the society would be able to enjoy these amenities, the question really becomes at which cutoff point is one too poor to do so, and how much of the society was that poor?

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andrekandre3y ago

  > My assumption, when applied to India, would be that it would be an issue for the untouchables caste?

afaik untouchables as a concept was mostly enacted around (british) colonial rule (when they instituted the caste system we see even to today), so might not apply to the time period they are talking about...

(happy to be corrected on this if i misunderstand)

unmole3y ago

> afaik untouchables as a concept was mostly enacted around (british) colonial rule (when they instituted the caste system we see even to today), so might not apply to the time period they are talking about...

This is revisionist nonsense. Ancient texts, both sacred and secular both describe a extant caste system.

msravi3y ago

Um, no, they don't. They describe a jaati system, and a varna system, both of which do not take the same meaning as caste. The british conflated the two, and invented caste.

The jaati system was a system of hereditary professional guilds - so you'd have different jaatis for accountants (Kulkarnis for example), farmers (Vokkaligas), teachers (Upaadhyayas), etc. The professional skill was jealously guarded and generally not open to outsiders.

And then you had the varna system which literally means category. This categorized people into 4 categories - Brahmanas, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, and Shudras based on their nature and actions, NOT profession. This was not hereditary.

The british had zero idea of this, conflated jaati and varna into "caste" and made it rigid by bringing out voluminous reports that classified each jaati into a varna!

unmole3y ago

Again, revisionist nonsense. Karna, one the greatest warriors of his time is not treated as a Kshatriya because of his birth. Shambuka, a Shudra is executed for daring to perform tapas. So much for the Varna is not hereditary theory. The Arthashastra makes it clear that privileges of being a Brahmin were accrued by birth. The Manusmriti describes the caste of the offspring based on the permutations of the parents castes in copious detail.

Varna has always been hereditary. Anyone claiming otherwise is mistaken or making stuff up.

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turtleyacht3y ago

This is interesting. Thank-you. Could you elaborate on the next piece from this idea?

For example, from jaati and varna, what follows from that? Admittedly, a vague question but wanting to learn a bit more.

Just saying this is the first perspective on HN I have read about caste being inaccurate, and wanting to understand this fresh context.

2 more replies

monetus3y ago

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

Seems like the British systems formed and formalized it, but that that itself was an amalgam of the cultural stratification that was sometimes already there. Multiculturalism turned monstrous... sad.

rendall3y ago

> Seems like the British systems formed and formalized it

Here is an extremely harsh critique of that perspective, from an upper-caste scholar of Indian history

https://thewire.in/caste/caste-history-postcolonial-studies

ch4s33y ago

There have been a number of genetic studies[1] that can identify caste heredity going back to almost the time of the Vedas showing VERY little genetic mixing between the castes.

[1] https://hms.harvard.edu/news/genetic-study-finds-caste-syste...

monetus3y ago

I think the link through in that article is sadly dead, but I still found it.

Wow, that is less intermingling than I would have guessed. I knew that caste had been there for ages, but it is still a bit astonishing to read that.

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bryanrasmussenOP3y ago

I've heard this before, but always found it doubtful, conquerors tend to enact systems that mimic those in their home countries.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

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andrekandre3y ago

  > My assumption, when applied to India, would be that it would be an issue for the untouchables caste?

(happy to be corrected on this if i misunderstand)

unmole3y ago

This is revisionist nonsense. Ancient texts, both sacred and secular both describe a extant caste system.

msravi3y ago

Um, no, they don't. They describe a jaati system, and a varna system, both of which do not take the same meaning as caste. The british conflated the two, and invented caste.

The british had zero idea of this, conflated jaati and varna into "caste" and made it rigid by bringing out voluminous reports that classified each jaati into a varna!

unmole3y ago

Varna has always been hereditary. Anyone claiming otherwise is mistaken or making stuff up.

1 more reply

turtleyacht3y ago

This is interesting. Thank-you. Could you elaborate on the next piece from this idea?

For example, from jaati and varna, what follows from that? Admittedly, a vague question but wanting to learn a bit more.

Just saying this is the first perspective on HN I have read about caste being inaccurate, and wanting to understand this fresh context.

2 more replies

monetus3y ago

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

Seems like the British systems formed and formalized it, but that that itself was an amalgam of the cultural stratification that was sometimes already there. Multiculturalism turned monstrous... sad.

rendall3y ago

> Seems like the British systems formed and formalized it

Here is an extremely harsh critique of that perspective, from an upper-caste scholar of Indian history

https://thewire.in/caste/caste-history-postcolonial-studies

ch4s33y ago

There have been a number of genetic studies[1] that can identify caste heredity going back to almost the time of the Vedas showing VERY little genetic mixing between the castes.

[1] https://hms.harvard.edu/news/genetic-study-finds-caste-syste...

monetus3y ago

I think the link through in that article is sadly dead, but I still found it.

Wow, that is less intermingling than I would have guessed. I knew that caste had been there for ages, but it is still a bit astonishing to read that.

1 more reply

bryanrasmussenOP3y ago

I've heard this before, but always found it doubtful, conquerors tend to enact systems that mimic those in their home countries.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse