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0 pointsgwbas1c3y ago0 comments

> if we could completely eliminate the use of cars for the vast majority of the populace

I find this way of thinking unrealistic and paternalistic. It might work in an authoritarian society, or in a society where the alternative to car culture is appealing.

But, let's get very realistic for a moment. I telecommute, and my wife has an in-person job. I'd even go so far as to say that most jobs are like hers: in-person, because she isn't a knowledge worker.

We go to the grocery store. Even though it's a reasonable walk, we take our car because it's not reasonable to lug the groceries back home. It's also not reasonable to bring groceries onto public transport. (My boss, who doesn't drive, uses an Uber for grocery shopping.) An alternate way of living would need to figure this out.

Even though most of our trips are very close to home, we do about 18k miles a year. Our family (and many friends) do no live in town. We also prefer to travel by car. It's much easier when going on a family vacation compared to lugging kids and baggage through all kinds of trains and bus transfer.

And... Where we live is mildly rural. Regular bus routes, (or similar) don't make sense.

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asdff3y ago

Well, what's stopping you from e.g. lugging the groceries back on a bike instead and going twice a week to carry less each time, earning you a gym membership out of the deal from the cardio? That's the sort of thinking we have to get past. This, "well I use a car for xyz so I need it for all things I do in life" It's fine to have access to a car when you need a vehicle of that caliber, but most car trips aren't that. Most car trips people take are less than 3 mile; 30% are less than 1 mile:

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1230-marc...

All of those could certainly be replaced with something more sensible. How many times have you hopped into the car to go to the store and grab one thing? Probably a lot in your life. With car culture, we basically have a mindset of using a big axe for every cutting job, even those where a butter knife would do.

anamax3y ago

> Well, what's stopping you from e.g. lugging the groceries back on a bike instead and going twice a week to carry less each time

Taking trips to get groceries isn't a benefit but a cost.

I get that you like to go to grocery and other stores often, that you like spending time going to/from stores. Lots of people don't.

> How many times have you hopped into the car to go to the store and grab one thing? Probably a lot in your life.

As a fraction of my total trips, almost never, but when I did, it was urgent to me. What's your basis for asserting otherwise?

And you'd have me do without or get on a bike late at night or in bad weather to handle those situations.

BTW - the share of trips by length graph shows that <1 mile trips are a small fraction of total car miles/use a very small fraction of the total gas use.

I suppose that it's poor form to mention that, since you wanted to use resource savings to justify imposing your dislike of cars on others.

I'll elaborate.

One 100 mile trip uses the same gas as two 50 mile trips, so unless you make >2x as many 50 mile trips as 100 mile trips, you use more gas on 100 mile trips than 50 mile trips even if you make more 50 mile trips than 100 mile trips.

Even without doing arithmetic, it's obvious that there's more gas used in 10-25 mile trips (14% of trips) than 5-10 (15% of trips) and more in 5-10 than 3-5 (12% of trips). (It's not clear whether there's more gas used in 25-50 than in 10-25, but it's almost a lock that there's more gas used in >50 mile trips than 25-50.)

That exercise using your data shows that the <1 mile trips are a small fraction of total car miles and gas use.

But, like I said, usage arithmetic doesn't help your argument.

asdff3y ago

I don't think that workout is so obvious when you consider other factors such as city versus highway driving. For example, I'd expect with a given short trip to the store, a higher ratio of your nominal time in the vehicle will be spent idling at a red light or otherwise low speed maneuvering the car, versus actually traveling at speed. I wonder what mpg people actually are clocking when they are going to a store across the block? I expect its nowhere near even the epa city rating.

Plus there is just the physics of it all. What costs more energy, moving 4000lbs and 150lbs of human 1 mile, or moving 25lbs and 150lbs of human 1 mile? The latter, obviously. Can't arithmetic around that. Even with EVs, its going to require less electricity to power an ebike to move you and your cargo than to do the same with a 5000lb car.

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robswc3y ago

Buying groceries for a family on a bike just seems like a nightmare, tbh.

I do something at least once a week with my car that just wouldn't be possible on public transport. Quick examples...

Transporting large amounts of already made food for parties. Transporting a net for use in sports. Transporting PVC pipes to do some custom hobby builds.

That's just going to be so much wasted time, imo. Plus there's often a lot of weather here that would be bad on a bike but manageable with a car.

asdff3y ago

All of that stuff you can probably do with a bike trailer. Plus you can just go to the store multiple times a week versus doing one big trip. That's how people shop in other countries outside the suburban carsphere. If the weather is bad just wear some rain pants.

cyberlurker3y ago

I did the bike grocery thing for years. And on public transport. It is highly dependent on climate, infrastructure, family size, being healthy…

Your point is valid, people drive short distances. But what if there are no sidewalks? Ive seen that too.

asdff3y ago

If there's no sidewalks that's no issue for me. The law says I ride on the road so I ride on the road. In terms of family size that's no issue either, since they sell bike trailers. I see a lot of family units biking to my local farmers market and loading up with them, for example. Too much to push with your two legs? They sell cargo ebikes now too. The "grocery getter" car is obsolete.

gwbas1cOP3y ago

No sidewalks and three kids.

Seriously, you're judgemental and not practical.

asdff3y ago

I'm not judging I'm just trying to expand people's minds that are often closed off by society. Chances are you aren't taking all 3 kids to the store, but if you are you can be like the families at my farmer's market who tow kids in a trailer. Break that grocery trip up into 2 or three weekly bike rides and suddenly its a third of the shopping you have to bring back, and better for cardio to boot versus just one weekly ride. I don't ride on the sidewalk either because its illegal in my county actually.

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asdff3y ago

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1230-marc...

anamax3y ago

> Well, what's stopping you from e.g. lugging the groceries back on a bike instead and going twice a week to carry less each time

Taking trips to get groceries isn't a benefit but a cost.

I get that you like to go to grocery and other stores often, that you like spending time going to/from stores. Lots of people don't.

> How many times have you hopped into the car to go to the store and grab one thing? Probably a lot in your life.

As a fraction of my total trips, almost never, but when I did, it was urgent to me. What's your basis for asserting otherwise?

And you'd have me do without or get on a bike late at night or in bad weather to handle those situations.

BTW - the share of trips by length graph shows that <1 mile trips are a small fraction of total car miles/use a very small fraction of the total gas use.

I suppose that it's poor form to mention that, since you wanted to use resource savings to justify imposing your dislike of cars on others.

I'll elaborate.

That exercise using your data shows that the <1 mile trips are a small fraction of total car miles and gas use.

But, like I said, usage arithmetic doesn't help your argument.

asdff3y ago

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robswc3y ago

Buying groceries for a family on a bike just seems like a nightmare, tbh.

I do something at least once a week with my car that just wouldn't be possible on public transport. Quick examples...

Transporting large amounts of already made food for parties. Transporting a net for use in sports. Transporting PVC pipes to do some custom hobby builds.

That's just going to be so much wasted time, imo. Plus there's often a lot of weather here that would be bad on a bike but manageable with a car.

asdff3y ago

cyberlurker3y ago

I did the bike grocery thing for years. And on public transport. It is highly dependent on climate, infrastructure, family size, being healthy…

Your point is valid, people drive short distances. But what if there are no sidewalks? Ive seen that too.

asdff3y ago

gwbas1cOP3y ago

No sidewalks and three kids.

Seriously, you're judgemental and not practical.

asdff3y ago

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