On being tired (opens in new tab)

This hits the nail on the head for me. Interestingly, I only came to this realization later in life as well. I've always thought of myself as "tired" but the real problem is I require an exceptionally high stimulating environment to excite me out of langour.

Exercise. Video games. Occasionally (rarely?) an academic subject that I am good at and interests me can also elicit this excitement and energy.

But in general I go about life in a rather "depressed" mode. Most tasks are done not because I feel that little kick to do them, but because I know if I don't my life will be worse.

I often wish I was more naturally excited by things which are less stimulating. I waste a lot of time just satisfying that part of my brain that craves stimulation and novelty. It's really a shame, because I truly do wish I were spending that time on productive or meaningful pursuits.

I've wondered over the years why I'm this way, when I work among peers who seem to get stimulation from reading such arcane topics as linux kernel development.

I can only assume in my case the root cause is video games + the internet. I'm in my mid 30s and have had a video game in my hand since I was 5 or 6 (original game boy). If my spare time wasn't spent playing video games, it's spent on the lottery game of social media / the internet over the years. I'm only just starting to work on undoing the damage these mediums have done to my motivation and stimulation center. If I'm honest, part of me doubts I'll ever be able to be genuinely excited about some of the hard work that I wish I could be excited about, but the thought of living the rest of my life essentially a slave to stimulating media is a depressing thought. I want to create interesting things, which means I need to be genuinely excited to learn new subjects.

This was an interesting post to me because I've never heard of that distinction, and I think I'm similar. I've often had issues with "being tired" but it's probably more accurately what you call languor. I'll have times when I'm bored throughout the day and sleepy but then a video game or stubborn coding problem will get me engaged and I'll suddenly spend hours and not feel tired at all while the time flies.

Likewise, I do find exercise helps when I do force myself to do it. The issue is often I have days where I struggle to motivate myself to do stimulating things, but perhaps that's another issue. Not really sure what could help there.

These being tired and fighting exhaustion with exercise threads must be a dread to read for anybody who works hard physically.

But I'm in the same privileged or at least not working physically position and I found most correlation with number of tasks I'm focusing on.

If there are too many things at once or none of them stands out, I'm more likely to feel tired.

If I'm focusing on a specific thing associated with specific action with no other things on my mind, it seems to be getting done effortlessly with high energy state.

I think you're right to distinguish between kinds of tiredness, rather than levels.

The article, good and thoughtful as it is, suggests that a dead-tired state is somehow just more tired than normally tired. But there is also a tiredness in which you are keen and ready and would be happy to get moving with something, but your mind and body are unable to do the real work competently - the analysis or the lifting. This is like your exhaustion, without your languor.

I had this feeling a lot during 2020 and put it down to a justifiable mental response to the times (I hadn't had Covid, as far as I knew) until, slightly to my surprise, I was diagnosed with a vitamin B12 deficiency which turned out to explain pretty much the whole thing.

I could not relate less. I'm guessing you don't have ADHD?

I wish lack of excitement and being tired felt the way you describe, but if anything it's the opposite.

I get more dopamine from being exhausted physically but overextending myself than I do from being bored, much to my misery.

Also probably fair to include burnout, chronic-fatigue/post-viral/long-covid, moderate to clinical depression, anhedonia, cardiac problems, auto immune diseases. Tired and fatigued are also super different. Sleepy vs tired, wired, and lacking the capacity to physically function effectively.

Growth = stress + rest. When physical or mental stress outpace rest you will get tired. The intensity and duration being the big differentiator.

For me I describe it as laziness vs tiredness (my English is probably not that advanced ;)).

The difficultly is that in both states, you don't feel like doing anything.

If someone has a quick way to distinguish between lazy and tired, I would love to know.

I have to agree. Exercise and music-making both reenergize me out of a state of mental exhaustion after work.

Physical exhaustion is different: its only cure is a nap.

What was your solution to the problem of negotiating with your wife about what to do on the weekends?

If her extroversion isn't strictly social, maybe you kind find activities that allow you both to recharge.

A camping trip for example could allow you an opportunity to read, and enjoy nature, and give her the opportunity to explore (hike, kayak, forage, etc.)

If that doesn't work you may also just consider doing different things on most weekends, and making explicit time for each other for a nice dinner, a movie, or something more traditionally 'dating'.

Wait till you have kids. Or rather: folks who don't have kids yet, recognize that when you do you pretty much lose your weekends to doing things with them. Especially so when you have more than one. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but it does seem to be a thing that people don't really appreciate until they're knee deep in it.

This often leads to the sort of deep tiredness described in this post for introverted parents.

Find myself there as well somehow though I wouldn’t call my partner 100% extroverted, Im the onr more on the introverted side. To me a mind trick is to attempt a balance. For instance to realize that it would do me good to be outdoors during which I could still do my introverted stuff (introspection) during which I also do some phisical exercise. I just can’t be 100% within my head all the time, I still have to interact with them from time to time or escape for a walk from time to time. Some times Im out with my family and realize the energy is too good to be missed, this moment has to be taken advantage of, so I join in whatever we’re doing. I usually reserve one day a week of complete me time during which I paint completely isolated from others and distractions. Just knowing there’s an escape valve I can sacrifice a day for another. Im also getting a some dose of introverted recharge while working, while doing repetitive work on autopilot but I have to admit there’s a bit of energy drain there too with the necessary socialization.

> Most weekends rather than recharging for the rest of the week, I end up more tired than I started.

As a parent, it's hard to remember that ending a weekend "recharged" is a common experience.

> This creates tension every weekend when we need to negotiated what to do.

Is it necessary to negotiate? Why can't each of you do whatever they want to do?

"Fine you go out I'll read a book" or perhaps "I'd generally rather read a book than go out, but I'd like to spend this time with you, so I'll go out with you to visit places".

I've came to this same realization after years next to an extrovert.

It's obvious once you understand the differences but until then it's pure misery regardless of how much you love the person.

You're often either unhappy or making them unhappy for no apparent reason.

Cardiovascular exercise takes more energy than it gives at the beginning but your body will get less easily tired further down the road. So yes, activities can give energy.

Regarding mental energy - when I'm in an "everything is draining" state I consider that a depressive episode. When not in one of those, there are hobbies I find rewarding and stimulating (some even physical-energy-producing, like eating or drinking coffee). Or it can even be as simple/"idle" as "that was a fun run through Returnal, I feel pumped up."

I also get this "glow" sometimes and can't sleep for an entire night. I feel like I just want to jump out of bed and do everything at once. But I keep telling myself that "I'll make sure to do it tomorrow" but that seems to almost never happen. I don't mind these sleepless nights, but I wish the "glow" came during the day instead.

That's funny, I have the same nights sometimes and never thought of asking a doctor. Seems it's just what happens when we stay too inactive for a few days or mess up our sleep schedule.

Was that the only symptom for the psychosis diagnosis?

If you’re comfortable saying, could I ask which meds you were prescribed?

I had a mild one that put me out of work for a week. I wonder if it's really a lack of energy, or just the body deterring you from any activity by pretending to be tired, so the brain can heal faster.

Agreed - surgeries too. Between waiting for the anesthesia to work itself out and the body recovering from the shock of it, it can be a wallop to the energy reserves. Recently slept like 20 hours a day for a day or two after a comparatively mild one.

That's amazing, heh.

People still play Quake?

> Partying all night has an extremely bad effect due to several factors I better not mention directly

Unfortunately there’s no time to party during the day.

taking iron supplements for a male is dangerous, my doctor told me years ago, for whatever that is worth

As someone also in the U.K., check your CO2 levels where you sleep and work.

It can also be vitamin B1 or B12 deficiency.

I've never heard of this before. Is this well known? Do ROS go away after sleeping?

Can you suggest a good overview book on this subject?

I never ate much meat but I do eat fermented-only dairy. I got my bloodwork done and I am iron deficient. I am taking the bisglycinate salt which is completely unnoticeable on my stomach. I'll have it retested after a course of 5000mg elemental iron equivalents (about a month). My mood noticeably improved after checking and correcting my blood vitamin and iron levels.

Also high CO2 in working and sleeping areas. Basically any older building without HVAC and with upgraded (double pane) windows.

Is there any research to back that claim up?

I just saw a thing on social media that if you require 9-10 hours of sleep to function, you probably have sleep apnea.

That's been my case since childhood but I only found out a couple of years ago that I have mild sleep apnea. I was fitted for an ALF appliance and did myofunctional therapy and mostly corrected it. Now I sleep with tape over my mouth, which lets me wake up feeling mostly normal instead of hungover:

http://sleepapneatherapist.com/mouth-tape-sleep/

The only difference is that I use 2 pieces of 1/4" wide ordinary surgical tape in a X shape so that the outer lips are held closed instead of the center. This is for aesthetics, to keep the upper lip from stretching over time, which can lead to unpredictable levels of homeliness :-/

Hopefully this helps someone get enough energy to get themselves checked out.

Edit: also, the tape is short enough that it's easy to open your mouth and rip the tape off in the middle of the night to breathe. The tape is more of a hint to the body to get used to sleeping with the mouth closed.

Gluten can be responsible for such conditions. As many other external factors I guess. I have been reducing gluten consumption recently and kinda feel tiredness as reduced. Maybe unrelated but it cannot hurt. Also practicing sport regularly helps reducing tiredness. Human body is such a complex machine.

This should be the top comment. Easy thing to deal with if identified.

This is dangerous advice, it really depends on what you're tired from and you can't apply it generally.

Eg tiredness caused by actual, diagnosed, Long Covid often does go away with more rest. In fact, even a tiny bit too much, too soon, can severely set back your recovery. To my understanding, parent's "just will yourself back into shape" advice is the exact opposite of what long covid patients should be told.

(Source: wife has long covid since January; her own experiences + what her therapists say from research and other clients)

This 'general tiredness' you're referring to seems to be linked to depressive states, whereas the blog post is more about exhausting yourself by trying to solve every little challenge you come across:

> Another key observation is that this tiredness I’ve been feeling is different from depression. I’ve experienced the latter in the past on a few occasions and while there are similarities in how they impact your life, I’d put them in different buckets. If only for the reason that I haven’t encountered these current experiences before.

Maybe it's a little bit of both; lack of motivation gradually eating at your reserves and transforming you into a generally tired person.

Hard to be sure tbh. I thought I had something like that since I had covid at least twice. Now I am on vacation next to sea and i wouldn't say I lack energy.

I think for some the daily grind causes noticeable fatigue fairly quickly (if not managed actively).

I think it has something to do with an accumulation of microplastics and/or PFAS/PFOS in our bodies. One of these things is going to be our generation's version of leaded gasoline.

How do you fight it?

I had COVID in March 2020 and I feel like ever since then I'm more tired all the time, even if I sleep enough.