Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (2000) [pdf] | Better HN

Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (2000) [pdf] | Better HN

38 comments

I think one of the reasons it's really hard to do any kind of system innovation is because current systems, that work pretty damn well despite their flaws, have decades of development baked into them.

Let's say I have an idea for some kind of experimental system idea. The amount of effort to build that idea from scratch and make it relevant to modern computing is astronomical. Unless you're a wealthy company that can hire dozens of engineers to work on a research problem for years, it's much more reasonable to build that idea as some kind of software package on top of existing systems like Linux or have it be a component of whatever technology stack that idea is relevant for (web - JS/ruby/php etc)

kragen3y ago

This paper is from 22 years ago, it's not true anymore. The fact that the technology stacks that occur to you are "JS, Ruby, PHP, etc." is strong evidence of that.

Rails is a very relevant modern web technology. It's just ruby + JS at its core along with whatever tools get added to make the infra scale up (docker, aws, redis, kafka etc)

There is no widespread modern web without JS at the moment

kragen3y ago

Agreed, and 22 years ago none of that was true. Rails, Docker, AWS, Redis, and Kafka didn't exist, and JS was unstable and mostly used for image rollovers. Those are ideas that have been built from scratch and made relevant to modern computing since the paper was written.

seanmcdirmid3y ago

I had lunch with Rob Pike after he gave that talk. I wasted it on arguing about Java, being just a dumb grad student at the time.

thesuperbigfrog3y ago

HTML version: https://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/utah2000/utah2000.html

blacksmithgu3y ago

I think "systems engineering" has won out over "systems research" - optimizing existing systems instead of creating new ones. Part of it is that we are constrained by our hardware, which forces us into specific paradigms; but I think also systems end up becoming fungible and it a point it doesn't really matter what RPC protocol you use - just that it's fast.

pyrolistical3y ago

While true we are hardware bound, it’s pretty apparently we are not fully utilizing the hardware all the time. That gap is what research needs to close

blacksmithgu3y ago

I would say closing that gap is exactly what engineering is - optimizing your existing systems to maximally use the hardware. Its very quantitative and extremely detail oriented; you usually just improve Linux or add system calls for better performance, instead of baking up a whole new operating system.

Obviously part of this is just arguing over semantics though :)

That is very useful work to squeeze more performance out of existing software, I would say there is still a lot more to be gained from big wins in more efficiently distributing computing power like cloud computing and containerization (which are the kind of non-obvious ideas that require systems research to happen before implementation).

I'm not a systems researcher on the verge of becoming a millionaire so I don't know what those ideas are but anyone can see the untapped potential is enormous.

oxff3y ago

The author defines systems research as:

> What is Systems Research these days? Web caches, web servers, file systems, network packet delays, all that stuff. Performance, peripherals, and applications, but not kernels or even user-level applications.

This seems false. DBMS and OS research is pretty interesting today. Look into Andy Pavlo or Onur Mutlu's courses and students to get pointers.

mannyv3y ago

He's not wrong. Computer research is so irrelevant that I haven't ready much of it in decades. The things that do bubble up are theoretical security problems that really won't move the needle.

I mean, TCP/IP won, but that doesn't mean that it's the best. It's not even close. Same with the current CPU architectures; the work, they can scale, but still.

The chips today can solve certain kinds of problems really well. Is the scope our problems are limited by what the chips can do? Or does it seem that way because they're so general-purpose that they can handle any kind of problem?

jll293y ago

Apache Spark originated from a Berkeley Ph.D. thesis (Zacharia), so it shows that a single person can still move the needle in systems research [1]. It also shows that academic research matters, and that academic innovation interacts with industry and FOSS research: Spark was built as a response to limitations of Hadoop (FOSS research & development), an open source clone of Google Map/Reduce (industry research & development). Spark then led to a startup, Databricks, so we've gone full circle.

Now this doesn't render Pike wrong, his complaint is these things do not happen often enough. My take on why is: many academics are not good coders, because academic environments view coding as "just engineering", all they care is papers. The primacy of the paper (over the system artifact that can be demoed) is one of the sad developments in CS.

Edit: We should less discuss whether Pike is right or wrong - I think he wants to provoke us to prove him wrong by building more radically new systems again and demo them - let's do that!

[1] https://www.kdnuggets.com/2015/05/interview-matei-zaharia-cr...

kragen3y ago

We did. More than almost anyone, he did.

sbazerque3y ago

In the 2000s we spoke about distributed operating systems (Inferno, etc.). That's where systems research seemed to be headed, yet that never really took off. But maybe we're revisiting the concept now, just coming down from the layer above (e.g. application data types) instead of trying to rethink the OS.

I work on this [1], it kinda looks like systems software, and it doesn't feel stagnant. But then, nobody uses it (yet - I hope).

And there's a plethora of similar ideas (DAT, OrbitDB, etc.).

[1] https://www.hyperhyperspace.org

kragen3y ago

The Web is our distributed operating system. You say the name of an application, and the latest version of its code gets loaded into your computer over an encrypted and authenticated connection, compiled for your platform, and run in a sandbox that isolates it from all the other applications you're running. You can use any device interchangeably to run it, and all your data is just there.

It's not a very good distributed OS (our data belongs to the applications, and integration between them is very limited) but we've definitely realized the mobile code and portable executable dreams of the 90s.

tannhaeuser3y ago

> we've definitely realized the mobile code and portable executable dreams of the 90s

Fine, now how to get rid of it, along with the lack of innovation and the entangled group or naive nerds and salesmen taking advantage of them who think or pretend the web is about their fscking apps when it was always about content.

kragen3y ago

Build a better alternative and pack them off to it?

kragen3y ago

It's so strange to see this get posted every year and have people respond, "Oh, yes, systems software research is still irrelevant," despite all the radical changes in the last 22 years. The problem Pike pointed out in this talk got so, so dramatically solved, it's just unbelievable how solved it is. Consider the "high-end workstation" slide:

01990 software: Unix, X-Windows, Emacs, TCP/IP

02000 software: Unix, X-Windows, Emacs, TCP/IP, Netscape

02022 software: Android, Unix, X-Windows, SurfaceFlinger, Wayland, Emacs, VS Code, TCP/IP, IPv6, ubiquitous TLS, Chromium, Firefox, mpv, V8, Docker, Kubernetes, Dark Souls, SQLite, Hadoop

01990 language: C, C++

02000 language: C, C++, Java, Perl (a little)

02022 language: Python, C, Java, C++, C#, JS, PHP, Objective-C, Golang, Sawzall

The top 30 items on the HN home page right now are about an open-source NewRelic alternative; a library for RPC from the browser to node.js; a UX design curriculum; photosynthesis; this talk; a bash one-liner; an in-browser ping-time tester; using org-mode for to-do lists in Emacs; noise suppression using wasm in Jitsi Meet, an open-source videoconferencing system built on WebRTC and TURN; TikTok tracking you across the web; Active Directory on Azure; USB SuperSpeed; a company hiring; Chinese transnational policing; a self-hosted photo-management system called Lychee using PHP, Laravel, Sass, npm, and Webpack; cyborgs; gambler's ruin; interspecific sociality in nonhuman apes; a detonation rocket test; social aspects of startups; a Microsoft UI bug with devastating consequences; a new approach to keeping trains apart; the international energy market; how to learn to program; gymnastic photographs from 01902; the tenth anniversary of TypeScript; the tradeoffs in Copilot, a deep-learning transformer that completes natural-language code based on a model trained on GitHub; testing React apps with Cypress, with a screencast; salted fish; and the relationship between rationality and wisdom.

Of these 30 items, 11 aren't even about software. Four others are built on systems software that existed in 02000: Emacs, Microsoft Windows, bash, and XMLHttpRequest. The other 15 are built on systems software that didn't exist when Pike wrote this paper: Cypress, React, Git, GitHub, TensorFlow, the transformer model, CUDA, OpenCL, Laravel, node.js, npm, Webpack, Azure, TURN (and NAT traversal in general), WebRTC, V8 and other high-performance JIT compilers for JS, wasm, Android and iOS (where people use TikTok), NewRelic and similar web profiling tools. (I'd say "org-mode" but really org-mode is more like an application than like systems software.)

A developer from 02000 transported forward to now would be totally lost in those 15 out of 19. They'd have no idea what they were even talking about, what kind of problems they were trying to solve.

In 02000, it's easy to forget, even using XMLHttpRequest was an advanced, risky thing. The web was made of documents, not applications. Applications ran on your webserver or, much more likely, your desktop. Since then we've moved to running the vast majority of our software in web browsers and the majority of our servers in AWS, Azure, and Google Cloud, none of which existed in 02000.

The mainstream programming languages of today are Python and JS, which both existed only as tiny niches back then. GPGPU was just beginning; Vulkan, OpenCL, and I think CUDA and even GLSL didn't exist. The most exciting developments of the last few years are things like Docker, Kubernetes, and Stable Diffusion, which all run on platforms that didn't exist in 02000. Not only didn't Intel CPUs support hardware virtualization, even VMWare was just starting to get adoption; virtualization was still mostly only a thing on IBM 360 mainframes.

For better or worse, it's certainly different.

>A developer from 02000 transported forward to now would be totally lost in those 15 out of 19.

Don't you mean "015 out of 019"?

kragen3y ago

But 9 is not a valid octal digit since ANSI C.

kortex3y ago

"02000" is a "long now" thing, not octal. Thinking about the next 10,000 years and ald that.

https://longnow.org/

the-printer3y ago

Thanks for this amazingly informative post.

kragen3y ago

I'm delighted you enjoyed it!

> Unix  X Windows  Emacs  TCP/IP | Netscape

Well, now we have:

    Linux | Wayland | Vim/Emacs/VSCode | HTTPS | Firefox/Chromium

So that's some sort of progress. The direction/sign is left as an exercise to the reader.

ori_b3y ago

For reference: This site is hosted on plan 9, using a web server written in shell script.

bediger40003y ago

I think that the intervening 22 years have proved this correct. Just like aeronautics and materials science, computer science seems to have stagnated.

Huh? My team isn’t pushing the state of the art by any means, and I have about 6 guys running about 40k hosts globally and they are more secure, better configured, etc than the work I did 20 years ago. Then, I worked with a few hundred Unix systems as part of a team of like 40.

Systems and storage has advanced significantly.

mnau3y ago

Computer science may be stagnant, but practical applications of topics researched decades ago has flourished from small seeds into large forests.

I am pretty sure that all research on stuff we are since the horizontal scaling has taken over have been researched 4+ decades ago and is only now is widely used... though when I looked, the CAP theorem is from 1998, so maybe not.

CAP:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAP_theorem

2 of 3 for Consistency, Availability, Partition tolerance

abudabi1233y ago

The fish rots from the top. Lobbyists in the policy sausage making machine are likely the blame for the stagnation. The iPhone's introduction brought back to life the results of past research in industry. For example, Gorilla glass. And, compare the rocket engine design of SpaceX's Raptor, BO's and the designed to be reusable but to be thrown away after single use SLS's.

V_Terranova_Jr3y ago

Neither aeronautics nor material science have stagnated. I doubt computer science has either.

antegamisou3y ago

You're clearly unaware of research on programmable matter!

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