Show HN: Docker in the browser using x86-to-WASM recompilation (opens in new tab)

(copy.sh)

119 pointsg33y ago30 comments

30 comments

g3OP3y ago

If you're bored (or your code is still compiling), you can also try:

SerenityOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=serenity (one of their developers contributed PAE support to v86, which is extra cool. I believe it contains their own browser.)

ReactOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=reactos

Haiku: https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=haiku

9front: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=9front

Android: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=android

KolibriOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=kolibrios

HelenOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=helenos

Oberon: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=oberon

QNX: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=qnx

Windows 95 with IE 3: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows95-boot

Windows 98 with IE 5: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows98 (run networking.bat)

Windows 2000 with IE 6: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows2000 (run networking.bat)

v86 running in v86 (the inner one is running in node): https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=archlinux&c=./v86-in-v86.js

As well as most BSDs and Linuxes, as long as they still have i686 support.

s-macke3y ago

Can you explain in more detail how this recompilation works? When is it triggered? Because your emulator is still very slow, and recompiling doesn't seem to help. A wiki or blog post would be helpful.

g3OP3y ago

Yes, I should write about v86's internals some day. Meanwhile, the code is right here: https://github.com/copy/v86/tree/master/src/rust

It's much faster with recompilation than without, but I agree that it's slower than expected (compared to, for example, qemu-tcg).

There is still room for improvements (e.g. eflags updates, 16-bit instructions, call/ret optimisations, main loop), but part of the problem is limitations of web assembly (no mmap, only structured control flow) and browser engines (memory blow up on large generated wasm modules, related to control flow).

The webvm folks explain the control flow problem quite well, and seem to be doing a better job than v86: https://medium.com/leaningtech/extreme-webassembly-1-pushing...

mdaniel3y ago

And the whole story seems to be here (available via the Exit button from any of those pages): https://copy.sh/v86/ and https://github.com/copy/v86

franky473y ago

Gary Bernhardt's talk [1] is becoming more and more of a premonition.

[1] https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

MobiusHorizons3y ago

If you already have x86 to WASM, what do you need docker for? Seems like you already have all the encapsulation you could want at that point.

noname1203y ago

Docker is not just a container runner, it's also an API for interacting with them, a container creation language (Dockerfile), and more.

Being able to run Docker enables you to get access to all these tools and build the Docker containers from other projects.

g3OP3y ago

It makes for a cool demo (and it's a reference to the recent "wasm in docker" announcement).

piersj2253y ago

Link for anyone curious https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33320530

_jal3y ago

There's a generation of people who appear to treat docker images as a combined packaging/distribution mechanism. Instead of learning to create a .deb or .rpm, they write a dockerfile.

I tend not to use that sort of thing, but not just because of docker - there's a bundle of related practices that tend to turn my eye elsewhere. YMMV.

polotics3y ago

It's very true. However what is intrinsically better about a .deb or .rpm apart from having been there first? Are they the epitome of something? This is an honest question, I am really not sure. I vaguely remember that making an rpm was unpleasant and not very well documented, but it's been about ten yeats now...

2 more replies

dboreham3y ago

Resistance is futile.

pjmlp3y ago

The next step is to replace the kernel with a type 1 hypervisor, doing container orchestration.

Thanks to them we already have a way out of POSIX monoculture.

stopdropnhotpot3y ago

For driving development costs to zero.

ASalazarMX3y ago

Did I say zero? Overcomplicating development will drive costs into the negative because your payroll will decrease when people quit and no one wants to maintain that jenga tower.

adpirz3y ago

v86 also featured by supabase running postgres in the browser: https://supabase.com/blog/postgres-wasm

spyremeown3y ago

This is awesome, we have come full circle.

zakember3y ago

Not until we can have a browser within this docker container

8jy89hui3y ago

JSLinux [0] can run a whole Alpine Linux distribution with a x window server and a built in browser. We are already past the days of browsers within operating systems within browsers.

[0]: https://bellard.org/jslinux/

ASalazarMX3y ago

This is how we killed Moore's law. It stopped but we didn't.

mbreese3y ago

I don't see a network connection on the Docker host, so we have a little way to go yet.

(Unless someone knows how to access the network?)

1 more reply

revskill3y ago

Then stack overflow error is expected.

ffhhj3y ago

Could this be used for GPU computation?

stopdropnhotpot3y ago

Depends on the browser. There's standards here but not everyone is conforming.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

30 comments

g3OP3y ago

If you're bored (or your code is still compiling), you can also try:

SerenityOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=serenity (one of their developers contributed PAE support to v86, which is extra cool. I believe it contains their own browser.)

ReactOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=reactos

Haiku: https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=haiku

9front: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=9front

Android: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=android

KolibriOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=kolibrios

HelenOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=helenos

Oberon: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=oberon

QNX: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=qnx

Windows 95 with IE 3: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows95-boot

Windows 98 with IE 5: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows98 (run networking.bat)

Windows 2000 with IE 6: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows2000 (run networking.bat)

v86 running in v86 (the inner one is running in node): https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=archlinux&c=./v86-in-v86.js

As well as most BSDs and Linuxes, as long as they still have i686 support.

s-macke3y ago

g3OP3y ago

Yes, I should write about v86's internals some day. Meanwhile, the code is right here: https://github.com/copy/v86/tree/master/src/rust

It's much faster with recompilation than without, but I agree that it's slower than expected (compared to, for example, qemu-tcg).

The webvm folks explain the control flow problem quite well, and seem to be doing a better job than v86: https://medium.com/leaningtech/extreme-webassembly-1-pushing...

mdaniel3y ago

And the whole story seems to be here (available via the Exit button from any of those pages): https://copy.sh/v86/ and https://github.com/copy/v86

franky473y ago

Gary Bernhardt's talk [1] is becoming more and more of a premonition.

[1] https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

MobiusHorizons3y ago

If you already have x86 to WASM, what do you need docker for? Seems like you already have all the encapsulation you could want at that point.

noname1203y ago

Docker is not just a container runner, it's also an API for interacting with them, a container creation language (Dockerfile), and more.

Being able to run Docker enables you to get access to all these tools and build the Docker containers from other projects.

g3OP3y ago

It makes for a cool demo (and it's a reference to the recent "wasm in docker" announcement).

piersj2253y ago

Link for anyone curious https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33320530

_jal3y ago

There's a generation of people who appear to treat docker images as a combined packaging/distribution mechanism. Instead of learning to create a .deb or .rpm, they write a dockerfile.

I tend not to use that sort of thing, but not just because of docker - there's a bundle of related practices that tend to turn my eye elsewhere. YMMV.

polotics3y ago

2 more replies

dboreham3y ago

Resistance is futile.

pjmlp3y ago

The next step is to replace the kernel with a type 1 hypervisor, doing container orchestration.

Thanks to them we already have a way out of POSIX monoculture.

stopdropnhotpot3y ago

For driving development costs to zero.

ASalazarMX3y ago

Did I say zero? Overcomplicating development will drive costs into the negative because your payroll will decrease when people quit and no one wants to maintain that jenga tower.

adpirz3y ago

v86 also featured by supabase running postgres in the browser: https://supabase.com/blog/postgres-wasm

spyremeown3y ago

This is awesome, we have come full circle.

zakember3y ago

Not until we can have a browser within this docker container

8jy89hui3y ago

JSLinux [0] can run a whole Alpine Linux distribution with a x window server and a built in browser. We are already past the days of browsers within operating systems within browsers.

[0]: https://bellard.org/jslinux/

ASalazarMX3y ago

This is how we killed Moore's law. It stopped but we didn't.

mbreese3y ago

I don't see a network connection on the Docker host, so we have a little way to go yet.

(Unless someone knows how to access the network?)

1 more reply

revskill3y ago

Then stack overflow error is expected.

ffhhj3y ago

Could this be used for GPU computation?

stopdropnhotpot3y ago

Depends on the browser. There's standards here but not everyone is conforming.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse