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0 pointsbrosinante3y ago0 comments

Didn't China (https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/l...) and the USSR (https://borgenproject.org/tag/poverty-in-the-former-soviet-u...) do similarly?

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purpleflame12573y ago

The millions dead in the Holodomor and the Great Leap forward certainly don't have any need for money anymore.

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twblalock3y ago

Both of those articles demonstrate that the improvement happened after those countries allowed market economies.

bmmayer13y ago

China's unprecedented generational explosion into the middle class happened only after Deng Xiaoping instituted market reforms. Economically, China is certainly more socialist than the west, but far more capitalist than it was in the 1970's.

Same with USSR/Russia, post-communism.

onlyrealcuzzo3y ago

At least currently, Russia is far below USSR median PPP income, inflation adjusted.

Life has gotten worse for the average person in Russia in the last 40 years, not better - by almost every measurable metric.

And that's with all the low cost tech they can import - like $20 cell phones and pirated Hollywood movies.

If China is on one end of success, Russia is on the other.

janef04213y ago

Market reforms are not intrinsically capitalist.

bmmayer13y ago

Yes but these were. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform#:~:tex....

mensetmanusman3y ago

Only after they gave up a planned economy.

AnnikaL3y ago

Your second link refers to poverty being reduced after the fall of communism, when former Soviet states instituted capitalist reforms.

throwaway4good3y ago

There was a massive drop in living standards in the former Soviet Union after the introduction of capitalism in the 90es. Average life expectancy dropped something like 10 years, corresponding to millions of dead.

kurisufag3y ago

>There was a massive drop in living standards

that tends to happen when the government runs resources down to near-zero, forcing the new system to start from scratch.

had the conversion occurred earlier, when the USSR was still a reasonably successful state, I suspect it would have gone nicer.

snovv_crash3y ago

It also coincided with massive increase in the supply of available alcohol.

wiseowise3y ago

And that’s an issue of capitalism, not impotent economy that has been drained by decades of poor planned economy of communism?

epistasis3y ago

Most communists and socialists will refer to both the USSR and China as capitalist projects on accelerated timelines. They were trying to speed-run from feudalism, through capitalism, to communism.

At least that's what comes up when you mention the problems that these countries have.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

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purpleflame12573y ago

The millions dead in the Holodomor and the Great Leap forward certainly don't have any need for money anymore.

1 more reply

twblalock3y ago

Both of those articles demonstrate that the improvement happened after those countries allowed market economies.

bmmayer13y ago

Same with USSR/Russia, post-communism.

onlyrealcuzzo3y ago

At least currently, Russia is far below USSR median PPP income, inflation adjusted.

Life has gotten worse for the average person in Russia in the last 40 years, not better - by almost every measurable metric.

And that's with all the low cost tech they can import - like $20 cell phones and pirated Hollywood movies.

If China is on one end of success, Russia is on the other.

janef04213y ago

Market reforms are not intrinsically capitalist.

bmmayer13y ago

Yes but these were. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform#:~:tex....

mensetmanusman3y ago

Only after they gave up a planned economy.

AnnikaL3y ago

Your second link refers to poverty being reduced after the fall of communism, when former Soviet states instituted capitalist reforms.

throwaway4good3y ago

kurisufag3y ago

>There was a massive drop in living standards

that tends to happen when the government runs resources down to near-zero, forcing the new system to start from scratch.

had the conversion occurred earlier, when the USSR was still a reasonably successful state, I suspect it would have gone nicer.

snovv_crash3y ago

It also coincided with massive increase in the supply of available alcohol.

wiseowise3y ago

And that’s an issue of capitalism, not impotent economy that has been drained by decades of poor planned economy of communism?

epistasis3y ago

Most communists and socialists will refer to both the USSR and China as capitalist projects on accelerated timelines. They were trying to speed-run from feudalism, through capitalism, to communism.

At least that's what comes up when you mention the problems that these countries have.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse