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0 pointsonetimeusename3y ago0 comments

This is kind of a racist against whites who I think are used as a scapegoat no matter what. In my experience, those sports teams you are talking about are filled up with international and Asian students[1][2]. The dumb white elite student and the extremely talented, poor Asian student stereotypes are not true in my opinion. Maybe they were in the past.

Even the SAT score can be gamed.[3] I think pretty much every admissions advantage that exists is found and exploited. These schools are no longer about providing an elite education to talented students who want to get ahead. They are credential factories and students who go these schools have parents that push them from young ages to get in because they want the status credential. I have all sorts of stories about how fake a lot of students CVs are. Fake non profits, doing math competitions despite not liking math, getting into obscure sports, etc. It's absolutely not just white people who do this.

I am not advocating for dropping test scores. I just want to point out how aggressively people pursue getting admitted to elite schools and the specter of cheating hangs over it all too. I have friends who did tutoring in other countries who talk about paid SAT test takers.

[1]: https://gocrimson.com/sports/mens-fencing/roster

[2]: https://goprincetontigers.com/sports/mens-squash/roster?path...

[3]: https://qz.com/980074/the-sat-can-be-hacked-and-gamed-with-t...

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QuarterReptile3y ago

>These schools are no longer about providing an elite education to talented students who want to get ahead.

This is the arbitrage opportunity for lower-ability legacy students. If the schools provided elite educations, they would chew up and spit out lazy rich kids (and probably generate parental acrimony toward the schools in the process, weakening the donor connections.) As affirmative action of all shapes and sizes creates an ever-expanding group of people most likely to fail who the school is particularly determined to not flunk, there is more safe space for deadweight rich kids (which, for the record, I suspect is an overplayed trope relative to actual prevalance, though probably not hard to find at top-ranked schools.)

onetimeusenameOP3y ago

> arbitrage opportunity for lower-ability legacy students

Is that generally true or is that a stereotype?

Legacy students also had a higher average SAT score than non-legacy students, at 1523 for legacy students and 1491 for non-legacy students.[1]

[1]: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/9/8/2025-freshman-su...

lordnacho3y ago

"The average SAT score of students with family income under $40,000 was 1443, while those with a family income of more than $500,000 averaged 1520."

Would the legacies tend to have much higher income, or is any old person who's a child of an alumnus considered a legacy?

QuarterReptile3y ago

Child of alumnus should be considered legacy, but that's not to say that thay factor doesn't also skew wealthy.

QuarterReptile3y ago

First, if that number could be read directly as a refutation of my hypothesis, it would be tied, rather than showing an advantage to the legacy students.

Now, a few guesses: first, to the extent that affirmative action is even partially successful in targeting disadvantaged groups, affirmative action students should be less likely to be legacy, meaning that applications of legacy students should at least reflect a numerical superiority consistent with the strength of the affirmative action bias. Second, I will say that from personal experience I valued, more highly than was deserved, the schools that my parents attended; in this way those schools were the beneficiaries of highly effective advertising, through my parents, that made me more focused on those particular schools than they deserved (so much so that two of the three were two of the four schools I intended to apply to.) The aggregate outcome of that effect across all legacy applicants should be a higher-than-usual applicant quality in the pool of legacy students.

BurdensomeCount3y ago

Now remove the affirmative action portion of the non-legacy students and compare numbers again.

cuteboy193y ago

This particular example is just not representative. It does "benefit" whites who are apparently 83% of the athletic quota. The graph is just terribly made. We need not blame or scapegoat whites but at the same time acknowledge that they are the beneficiary

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/9/8/2025-freshman-su...

onetimeusenameOP3y ago

As a contrast, this points out that Asians disproportionately were affected by Stanford's decision to cut varsity sports.[1] This resonates with the experience I have had.

I don't know if whites are generally the beneficiary of student athletic admissions policies at all elite schools although it is complicated because of things like decades old sports from before diversity was a concern and team size. I don't see Harvard cutting long successful teams just to appease non white people but then again they probably would. Also things like the men's football team have a very large roster of 100+ people.

[1]: https://stanforddaily.com/2020/09/27/varsity-cuts-challengin...

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QuarterReptile3y ago

>These schools are no longer about providing an elite education to talented students who want to get ahead.

onetimeusenameOP3y ago

> arbitrage opportunity for lower-ability legacy students

Is that generally true or is that a stereotype?

Legacy students also had a higher average SAT score than non-legacy students, at 1523 for legacy students and 1491 for non-legacy students.[1]

[1]: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/9/8/2025-freshman-su...

lordnacho3y ago

"The average SAT score of students with family income under $40,000 was 1443, while those with a family income of more than $500,000 averaged 1520."

Would the legacies tend to have much higher income, or is any old person who's a child of an alumnus considered a legacy?

QuarterReptile3y ago

Child of alumnus should be considered legacy, but that's not to say that thay factor doesn't also skew wealthy.

QuarterReptile3y ago

First, if that number could be read directly as a refutation of my hypothesis, it would be tied, rather than showing an advantage to the legacy students.

BurdensomeCount3y ago

Now remove the affirmative action portion of the non-legacy students and compare numbers again.

cuteboy193y ago

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/9/8/2025-freshman-su...

onetimeusenameOP3y ago

As a contrast, this points out that Asians disproportionately were affected by Stanford's decision to cut varsity sports.[1] This resonates with the experience I have had.

[1]: https://stanforddaily.com/2020/09/27/varsity-cuts-challengin...

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