Please don’t put words into my mouth that I did not say (and certainly don’t think).

Note that I had a positive experience living in Asia for 9 years, and I am currently active in Asian communities in Asia as well as the Asian-American community. If I felt for one second that there has been any actual systemic discrimination happening, I would be all over it, and I would speak out loudly against it.

Clearly I haven’t found any plausible systemic discrimination.

Regarding the “Asians being weaker” in some areas argument, i think there are two sides of this argument.

First, using Harvard as an example, 25-28% or so of the entering class is Asian. Given that Asians-Americans are about 6% of the US, this hardly smacks of systemic racism. Something doesn’t add up with this argument.

Second, I hear people say something like “ah, when you control for grades and test scores, Asians are accepted less frequently”. This is pretty much true at every elite school whose data I have seen.

So is this racism? Maybe, but I’m guessing not. Two courts who basically did a full body cavity search on Harvard also did not find any discrimination (note that if the Supreme Court overturns these decisions, it will be based on labeling affirmative action policies as being actively discriminatory against Asians and Whites, not actual direct discrimination against Asian applicants).

What I will say, based on hundreds of data points, is that Asian parents of kids who apply to elite schools (esp. those who don’t get in) routinely emphasize grades and SAT scores over all else. As I mentioned in my original reply, this is just living in denial about what the actual application process is. It’s much more than grades and SATs.

Check out the article I linked to above - applicants really want one or more 1s (and these 1s are tougher to get than this article makes it out to be) or pretty much all 2s with nothing below 3. The people who complain loudest about elite school admissions are typically scoring 5 or 6 in one or more categories while not getting a 1 in any. I have no idea why they are surprised that they were denied.

Some additional comments:

- The most likely discrimination that an applicant will face is at their own high school. High school counselors and teachers can be petty tyrants, and ambitious students can be screwed by high school counselors and teachers if they do not play their cards right. It can be a very political process.

- For folks who think that they were “almost there” and didn’t get in due to being Asian, I ask them this — were they waitlisted? If not, they were not even close.

- If someone is a strong applicant to elite schools, they will get into at least one. There are some weird things like rough quotas from certain high schools that may make it seem arbitrary for a specific school, but generally this is a known issue if it’s an issue. There is plenty of room at the bottom of each entering class for strong applicants, so these schools aren’t randomly turning away highly qualified applicants for meaningless reasons like race.

- I have an open offer to people who think Asians are discriminated against in admissions. Show me their application (or give me a lot of details), and I will tell you where things went south. 100% of the time people have done this, there was a glaring gap in their application. In the event that I somehow don’t find a gap, my next inquiry would be about their references (one bad one can ruin an applications, and some applicants get blindsided). If you have any examples, please post here. I will be happy to comment.

I don’t think that the criteria are quite as subjective as you think. Anything on the margin, especially if it will make or break an application, will be discussed and evaluated at a reasonable level.

Most people are getting downgraded because of complete omission of one or more evaluated areas.

For the past few decades, elite schools have been very clear that they are looking for more than good grades (which themselves can be highly subjective) and good SATs in applicants. As mentioned in the article I linked in my first reply, Harvard actually lays out their exact rubric.

If someone, Asian or not, decides not to participate in sports and doesn’t really have a good reason why not (e.g., had to work after school), they shouldn’t be surprised by their low rating in this area, and they better be highly rated (as in, a 1) in one or more other areas to compensate.

The schools don’t maintain these criteria in order to exclude a certain race of people. They maintain these criteria because they think it’s good for the school long term.

As a simple example, so many of the people who disparage athletics as a component of admissions have no idea how important being a varsity athlete can be after graduating — I call it a totally-not-club club because it has such an invisible but significant influence.

Lastly, I will add that it is almost impossible to have an evaluation system that yields an equal outcome for all races that isn’t a pure lottery. I know the lottery idea is popular on HN, but I think that this is overly dismissive of what makes the strong elite school applicants strong both when they apply and after they graduate. Imho, other than 10% or so of each entering class, it’s not that they are brainiacs — it’s that they are smart enough and can get interesting shit done.

That’s a nice opinion you have.

Do you have any evidence to support this?

The case against Harvard showed us pretty much everything behind the curtain. If there is any systemic bias against any group, that must be the best kept secret in the world.

Check out this article:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-presi...

Select quote:

“Don’t be fooled by those using the Jewish quota of the mid-20th century or charges of discrimination against Asian Americans (also despicable when true, but which the lower courts convincingly found was not the case here) as an excuse to limit the inclusion of Black and Latino students at selective universities.”