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0 pointsdanShumway3y ago0 comments

> What's so insidious about this thinking is that its framed as benevolence.

Again, I want to remind the context of this: the context is that you're saying we need to force people to work under the threat of losing their livelihood or they can't be fulfilled.

And you're phrasing this as if I'm coming in and colonizing blue-collar workers or pushing my ideals on them. I don't think "benevolence" is the right word to use here, I just don't think there's anything noble about forcing people to work and saying that it's for their own good. It's an interesting turn of phrase to write about this like it's a "culture" when -- again -- the conversation is about whether or not people in blue-collar positions are too lazy and unmotivated to find meaning unless they're forced to work.

I just... it's wild to hear that phrased using the terms you're using. And I wonder if those blue-collar workers would agree that guaranteed income would be "taking away" their purposes, because most of the blue-collar workers I know are much more engaged in social institutions than the white-collar workers around them, and are therefore probably more prepared to find meaning within their communities and families outside of work than the average programmer on HN is.

> You want to see what people get up to when they have endless free time, just see what idle young men get up to.

This is me imposing my culture on other people? Pointing out that you're basically comparing blue-collar workers to lazy youth? Come on.

We derive tremendous value from blue-collar workers that hold up white-collar jobs and allow society to continue to function, even though they're often paid significantly less than us for what is arguably more important work. The least we can do is not pretend that this arrangement is somehow created for their benefit. This has all the energy of the proletariat complaining that the rabble can't take care of themselves and how the actually offensive thing is suggesting that they can.

If only HN could get out of its bubble and empathize more with the average worker, then it would realize that the average worker is lazy and unmotivated and needs to be managed /s

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neltnerb3y ago

If only gpt4 could tell people what to do in order to find meaning. Surely it understands the human condition at least as well as market forces.

Wait, no actually from what I've seen gpt4 might be more empathetic to the idea that people deserve to find their own meaning in life without their betters giving them a purpose.

"Idle young men", oof. So, so patronizing, like people who think fast food jobs are only for high school kids.

hackinthebochs3y ago

>the context is that you're saying we need to force people to work under the threat of losing their livelihood or they can't be fulfilled.

That's one (bad) way to frame the context of the conversation. The better way is that the need to work is intrinsic to our psyche and core to our self-worth, but the ability to self-actualize is not. The need to constantly work has been a steady feature of our environment ever since we left the trees. Self-actualization, on the other hand, has not historically been a part of this. Meaning in human lives has largely been external, deriving from one's place in the social hierarchy. And work was a key facilitator in securing ones social status.

It should be a given that drastically changing the environment away from the historical baseline will have serious psychological ramifications. The progress of technology has had strong impact, but the social environment overlaid on the technological milieu has largely remained constant. So people got by mostly just fine. The internet has changed this calculus and we've seen widespread psychological damage as a result. AI stands to explosively accelerate this transformation.

What I am asking is whether people as a whole will be better off without necessary work being a driving force in their lives. People like you take it as axiomatic that a post-work society will be better, and offer misplaced moralistic arguments in favor of it. All I am saying is that its absolutely not axiomatic and should be considered directly on its merits and demerits. We've already seen many of the problems I'm talking about materialize.

>And I wonder if those blue-collar workers would agree that guaranteed income would be "taking away" their purposes

For gods sakes, this has nothing to do with the blue collar, white collar division. It's a division between the self-actualizers and non-self-actualizers. I used "class" as a generic grouping term. Although I expect the non-self-actualizers to be overrepresented among blue collar workers. That is, people who don't have the skill or the interest to engage in intellectual pursuits, but just want to make an honest living and take pride in their work.

>The least we can do is not pretend that this arrangement is somehow created for their benefit.

That's obviously not what I'm doing. Spare me these silly moralistic arguments. We need to be willing to discuss this issue as plainly as we can, not be hamstrung by misplaced political correctness.

danShumwayOP3y ago

> That's one (bad) way to frame the context of the conversation.

Is it actually a bad way to frame the context? Are you not saying that people need to be forced to work for their own benefit under the threat of losing their income? What you're saying is:

> What I am asking is whether people as a whole will be better off without necessary work being a driving force in their lives.

So... yeah, you're saying that people will be worse-off without an external force making them work, and it's good for them that they're forced to work. I think my phrasing is entirely accurate here. Losing the income requirement to work is the part you're concerned about, because stuff like UBI only gets rid of the requirement to work for income, it doesn't get rid of any social status that would be associated with work.

You're worried about people not needing to work for their financial security, and you're saying it's bad for them if they don't have a requirement to work for their financial security.

> although I expect the non-self-actualizers to be overrepresented among blue collar workers. That is, people who don't have the skill or the interest to engage in intellectual pursuits, but just want to make an honest living and take pride in their work.

You keep phrasing this like it's a compliment, but being able to make an honest living and being able to take pride in one's work has nothing to do with one's ability to self actualize. I'd push back again on this characterization -- the "non-self-actualizers" I know that make an honest living tend to be very involved in their communities. They go to church, they have social connections, they form meaningful relationships, they marry and have kids. They actually do stuff outside of work.

Self-actualization is not at all the same thing as whether or not you like academic pursuits.

----

I don't know whether or not a post-work society will have its own challenges or if it will be better, and I don't know if it's feasible to build one in the first place. I don't even know that people should be worried about GPT at all, I'm not sure it actually is going to take everyone's jobs. I don't think we're particularly close to a post-work-society, and I think programs like UBI are severely under-studied for the amount of praise they get.

But I do know that we're not doing people a favor by threatening them with financial destitution if they don't work.

And call that moralizing if you want, I'm fine with that. Call it politically correct, call it denying reality, whatever. But don't pretend that it's less empathetic to suggest that someone who doesn't go to college or learn to program isn't going to be intrinsically worse at self-actualization than everyone else. Don't phrase that like it's some kind of solidarity to call people unmotivated.

Yes, people struggle with deriving meaning outside of work, but that does not fit neatly into any singular social category, and it has a lot more to do with one's relationship with one's community and integration into non-work social institutions than it has to do with whether or not someone went to college.

hackinthebochs3y ago

>Are you not saying that people need to be forced to work for their own benefit under the threat of losing their income? What you're saying is:

Presumably you would take an antivaxxer to be dishonest by framing a vaccine mandate as "forcibly injecting me with chemicals against my will". This is no different. Stripping context alters the meaning and is dishonest. Notice how you defend this framing instead of just accepting my original words. It's clearly intended to give your argument some rhetorical benefit without needing to be explicit. This is a dishonest debate tactic.

One important difference is that no one is forcing anyone to work, that is simply the natural state of existence. There is freedom in battling against nature's cruelty. This is not equal to being forced to work at the end of a whip. Your phrasing doesn't distinguish between the two, mine does.

>You're worried about people not needing to work for their financial security, and you're saying it's bad for them if they don't have a requirement to work for their financial security.

I'll accept this phrasing. But notice it is importantly different than "being forced to work".

>You keep phrasing this like it's a compliment

I'm not ascribing any valence in my statements. I am being as neutral and non-judgmental as possible.

> but being able to make an honest living and being able to take pride in one's work has nothing to do with one's ability to self actualize.

Didn't say it did. Self-actualization is the process by which one derives meaning outside of their work/career. The point was that people who "just want to make an honest living" are generally not the self-actualizers.

>the "non-self-actualizers" I know that make an honest living tend to be very involved in their communities.

I agree. But the trends against church-going and community participation are steady. There is every reason to think those connections will eventually be severed for the working class folks as well.

>Self-actualization is not at all the same thing as whether or not you like academic pursuits.

Obviously. But academic pursuits are one avenue for self-actualization that the tech-class points to as ways people will fill the meaning gap in the future. The point is that this avenue is only viable for a relatively small percentage.

>Don't phrase that like it's some kind of solidarity to call people unmotivated.

That's just projection if anything. I'm interested in describing the world as it actually is so we can have an honest discussion about how not to drive society off a cliff. For some reason its damn near impossible to have honest discussions these days.

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neltnerb3y ago

If only gpt4 could tell people what to do in order to find meaning. Surely it understands the human condition at least as well as market forces.

Wait, no actually from what I've seen gpt4 might be more empathetic to the idea that people deserve to find their own meaning in life without their betters giving them a purpose.

"Idle young men", oof. So, so patronizing, like people who think fast food jobs are only for high school kids.

hackinthebochs3y ago

>the context is that you're saying we need to force people to work under the threat of losing their livelihood or they can't be fulfilled.

>And I wonder if those blue-collar workers would agree that guaranteed income would be "taking away" their purposes

>The least we can do is not pretend that this arrangement is somehow created for their benefit.

That's obviously not what I'm doing. Spare me these silly moralistic arguments. We need to be willing to discuss this issue as plainly as we can, not be hamstrung by misplaced political correctness.

danShumwayOP3y ago

> That's one (bad) way to frame the context of the conversation.

Is it actually a bad way to frame the context? Are you not saying that people need to be forced to work for their own benefit under the threat of losing their income? What you're saying is:

> What I am asking is whether people as a whole will be better off without necessary work being a driving force in their lives.

You're worried about people not needing to work for their financial security, and you're saying it's bad for them if they don't have a requirement to work for their financial security.

Self-actualization is not at all the same thing as whether or not you like academic pursuits.

----

But I do know that we're not doing people a favor by threatening them with financial destitution if they don't work.

hackinthebochs3y ago

>Are you not saying that people need to be forced to work for their own benefit under the threat of losing their income? What you're saying is:

>You're worried about people not needing to work for their financial security, and you're saying it's bad for them if they don't have a requirement to work for their financial security.

I'll accept this phrasing. But notice it is importantly different than "being forced to work".

>You keep phrasing this like it's a compliment

I'm not ascribing any valence in my statements. I am being as neutral and non-judgmental as possible.

> but being able to make an honest living and being able to take pride in one's work has nothing to do with one's ability to self actualize.

>the "non-self-actualizers" I know that make an honest living tend to be very involved in their communities.

I agree. But the trends against church-going and community participation are steady. There is every reason to think those connections will eventually be severed for the working class folks as well.

>Self-actualization is not at all the same thing as whether or not you like academic pursuits.

>Don't phrase that like it's some kind of solidarity to call people unmotivated.

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