It's like studying in the middle of the giant party. Of course you can plug in noise cancellation headphones and find dark corner, but you brain knows that all people you care about are right here.
If you want to share some thoughts or check on someone in the library you have no choice – you can't talk to them, or have to go outside. But internet removes this constraint.
I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps.
This. I've concluded the same, observing my own interaction patterns. I use very little social media (would've ditched Facebook if not for Messenger, and Instagram if not for my wife liking to post "stories"). I do, however, have a huge HN problem. But it's not a consumption problem. I feel a compulsion to comment (like here, now). If I don't do it - e.g. because I can't find anything I feel like responding to - I quickly get tired and it's easy to close all those HN tabs.
I've tried breaks from HN. Each time, I somehow ended up on Reddit. Again, not consuming, but engaging in discussions on various subreddits that tend to be more about conversation than links. The few times I tried to stop myself from that, I quickly ended up on Mastodon, posting "tweet storms" and creating more interesting conversations.
So at least in my case, it's definitely about connection. Pure consumption has its draw, but I can kick that somewhat easily. But those kinds of conversation - which, for reasons I'm not sure of, have no equivalent in meat space - have me in an iron grip.
So I've noticed — you and pjc50 are on enough threads, with interesting enough comments, that you fit into the same bit of my brain otherwise used for celebrities like Tom Scott and Scott Manly.
(Weirdly, most other high-karma accounts don't get filed like that in my head)
I've been looking for the next step.
Is it
> magazines?
> books?
> phone calls?
> irl networking?
It’s all of these, yes, but I still open HN every time I get some down time. While it feels very useful to me, I feel that I would be better served with a more condensed version of what I’m after here.
I think I’m proposing a mailing list?
You and me both. But, if I'm to have a serious addiction problem, I suppose I can live with this one.
As a shopping mall, it's full of advertisements, slot machines, games, fast food, sales clerks trying to lead you into the place they want you to be, etc. But it is also the place where almost all your friends are, and almost all the books and newspapers are.
It's hard to leave it because it has valuable things inside (even your office might be inside the mall), but it's also hard to stay in without having your agency taken away by everyone competing for your attention. You could get a book from the bookstore, read it and talk to your friends about it, but it's hard to do that in a mall where everything is designed to take you to their stores, entertainment centers, etc.
You're right from the structural/organizational perspective. If you visit astronomy forums and not 4chan, houses analogy holds true.
But my analogy comes from how my brain perceives reachability of other humans (especially one I care about). When I'm "in house", it takes a lot of effort to meet someone and have the human connection (i.e. you should agree on time and date, arrange the meeting, exit the house, reach the meeting point). But internet makes this almost instant – just open messenger/social media and here they're are, virtually always online.
I think this is a bug, not a feature. The mobile phone is to sociality as cocaine is to dopamine. It's super-charged, it's way out of our ancestral environment, and we don't see it as harmful only because we don't have the research yet. But we will.
I might visit Reddit and Hacker News, not because the app summoned me via notifications, but because my brain summoned the app, after just a 15 minute hiatus.
The issue is that browser and certain apps are available to me on the phone instantly.
And there are no good controls to help me me MINDFUL.
What I want from the phone (I use an iPhone): - Upon every unlock, or upon every app open, I should receive a popup asking me why I want to use the app/phone. - I can enter whatever I want in that popup, but that writing exercise of a few words will help me realize if I am making a mistake of using the crack-gadget too often. - I should be able to white-list apps. - I should be able to see my logs all in one place for later review and reflection.
> The issue is that browser and certain apps are available to me on the phone instantly.
I think you are right, and it has to do with decreasing UX friction: quick unlocks, overall performance, and muscle memory. I try to add some layers of friction, such as disabling tap to wake, or forcing password unlocks, or even browsers that offer a good but less smooth experience (eInkBro on Android could be one to try.
Overall, I think it helps me to go through apps occasionally and ask myself, “Is it an infinity app? Could I use this forever without content exhausting itself, or a purpose never being fulfilled?”
It's a demanding exercise in deliberate usage, and it can't always succeed (at least for me, I'm not that strong.)
I wish there were a good AOSP eInk phone to still use all the necessary everyday apps, but slower. The new Assistive Access simplified display mode seems very interesting on iOS from a UX perspective:
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/05/apple-previews-live-s...
"Always allowed apps appear normally", others are grayed out. When tapped they present a fullscreen "time out!" screen. You can ignore the limit from that screen but it presents you options and requires two or three taps so it kind of "gets in the way". I presume your input box could fit in there, although personally I think I would end up filling it with nonsense, or it would always be the same.
There's a bunch of analytics, like first pick up app. I don't think there is about overrides.
It can sync across Apple devices so you can't cheat by using another one.
Combine that with home screens + Focus modes and you can get in control.
(also "apps" above can be websites too in Screen Time")
1. I appended "iknowwhatiamdoing" to the existing alphanumeric password to unlock my phone, and disabled fingerprint unlock. I have to type that every time I want to use the device.
2. I've started asking myself "Does my phone need to remain powered on?" The answer is usually no; then I shut it off completely. This adds a couple minutes of delay / friction next time I feel the compulsion to use it.
Now, I routinely go an entire day with my phone shut off. Sometimes entire weekends, depending what's going on. I think it's been good for me!
Edit: I also realized that it's hazardous to use my phone as a wake-up alarm, because then you start every day half-awake with the info-drug delivery device already in your hand. It's too easy to stay in bed and open up Youtube. So, I've switched (back, after 20 years!) to using a dedicated alarm clock.
I have tried setting up screentime, but I need a hard lock mode...
Apple allows you to setup focus modes with whitelists that use location and time, that might do the trick.
>> I should receive a popup asking me why I want to use the app/phone
> This app can read and change your data on any website
Because all apps are in the same locations your muscles memory kicks in. If you shift your apps regularly, you actually have to hunt for the app disrupting the psychological behaviour conditioning.
It also gives you a mini panic attack but allows you to break free of the whole close app, reopen same app syndrome.
This experience has taught me that you can reset your brain to whatever normal you want. It's hard but doable. I'm not someone that has a ton of willpower but have managed to keep to this for the last couple of months.
It's a pretty simple setup: one set of home screens for each mode, silencing non-work notifications during Work focus, and snoozing work email during Personal focus. Although writing this, I realise I ought to look at blocking Reddit and HN websites...
It helped me a lot with my addiction to Instagram and the one second breathing helps put things into perspective. I end up (90%) of the time not opening up the app after my one sec.
There's really no need for yet another app or trick, just putting distracting devices out of reach is enough of a hassle to only use it when you actually need to.
The screen is the window to the matrix, our collective digital space.
That matrix is something incredibly powerful. We have not tamed it. We don't even have a theory of taming it. A psychological, political, economic framework that does not drift into toxic, rapacious abominations.
We need to learn to live this dual existence as individuals.
We need to learn to build sane digital communities.
Admitting we have a really serious problem is the first step.
I have some thoughts here. Traditional meditation practice is accepting of the tendency of the mind to wander. Such is the nature of our minds. Over time, we strive to improve our ability to focus / concentrate / redirect our attention.
But when it comes to socio-technical design we need more than infinite patience around distractions. We probably want and need to evaluate how we do. Tor example:
- how often are we distracted? - for how long? - why? (is it simply due to our 'wandering' brains? And/or it is more causally connected to environmental factors, such as attention-stealing devices?) - what interventions work for certain kinds of distractions?
Sometimes people are drawn to the notions of metrics. There is value in metrics; there are clear mathematical ways to calculate them. Collecting, them on the other hand, can be quite challenging.
But let's not limit ourselves to 'metrics' in the quantitative sense. The reason is obvious: some of our most important goals are not easily put into quantitative terms. Luckily, with vast improvements in text processing, we need not limit ourselves to traditional metrics based on scoring. We must think bigger and broader.
With a good set of evaluation mechanisms (again, not just metrics), we don't have to fall back on some indefinite mindset about 'doing better'; we can actually demand that products and services be designed and adhere to basic principles. These principles will probably be somewhat subjective and culturally contingent, but that doesn't discount that they can also be grounded in neuroscience, broadly accepted notions of morality, and tunable according to cultural and situational factors.
Does this make sense?
Let's start working on the theory!
I have removed all social media apps from my device including Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. I don't use media streaming apps on mobile like YouTube.
I do spend a lot of time reading on mobile that is helpful but it does train my focus to constantly context switch and reduces my ability to focus for non-appealing tasks for a long period like reading books.
Only thing that has helps is putting the device away but banking apps, TOTP, etc. makes it difficult.
But I have unsuccessfully tried DND, gray screen, etc.
There is research that reducing mobile usage by an hour a day improves wellbeing. But I don't know how to tackle this situation in a sustainable manner.
Certainly I can go monotone. But not desaturate partially.
But I hate the Shorts features, if I click on only one video, it sucks all my night.
I built a small app for blocking the Shorts features, in this way I can enjoy the advantages without having the bad sides.
It also workes on firefox mobile, I stopped using the default youtube app.
On mobile just use the website.
Yeah that's fine, but if half is Apple Maps because I had to drive somewhere far away, this result is meaningless.
I indeed also just want to know how much time I spend in soul sucking apps. Or rather, in soul sucking websites because I feel that using websites for ie reddit are what always keeps me there for a short time before annoyance allows me to quit (thank you reddit).
The daily average is just a benchmark to see high level trends. Drilling down is far more interesting.
The “first used after pickup” report can be quite interesting as well.
I screw around here and on other sites more but I can tackle that next.
I don't agree with that analogy. To use a different analogy, people don't join Weight Watchers because they want to quit eating.
Also, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous#Criticism :
] Stanton Peele argued that some AA groups apply the disease model to all problem drinkers, whether or not they are "full-blown" alcoholics.[132] Along with Nancy Shute, Peele has advocated that besides AA, other options should be readily available to those problem drinkers who can manage their drinking with the right treatment.
In AA, we do get people attending who just want to control their drinking. They're usually sent by the courts (in the US, at least) due to some misdemeanor they commited while drunk, as though those of us battling ourselves are supposed to teach some 20-something how to be responsible adult because their parents failed them. Sometimes one of those court-sent people finds out they have a real problem, and end up sticking around. However, for the most part, the rest are there for a few weeks because they have to be, we sign their slips, and never see them again. We don't give out chips for that.
I am sure AA doesn't bother with moderation because abstaining is simply that much more effective.
Even if you went on a month long screen detox in the woods you are going to "relapse" at some point when you get back. The AA model is just not going to work in this situation.
The author asserts "If that’s the case, the only healthy screen time is no screen time. Zero."
That is almost impossible these days. We increasingly require smart phones such that NOT having/using one is difficult, even for those who don't want one. Important information and services are moving to the internet, making a non-internet life more difficult. Yet the author wants use to consider that as a viable solution!
AA promotes abstinence, and supports people who want to maintain abstinence. As I often go for months without drinking alcohol, I know that there is still a lot one can do without drinking.
What would you do if your company required you to drink alcohol to work, your kid's school required you to drink alcohol to check on your kid's status, a restaurant required you to do a shot to get a menu, and you couldn't rent a bike without first drinking even more alcohol?
And that's why I don't like the author's use of an essentially impossible solution as the comparison.
While Weight Watcher's and other diet plans don't say "abstain from all food", which of course is impossible.
WW specifically uses a points-based system so that some foods, like "leafy greens, carrots, tomatoes, green beans, asparagus, onions, broccoli and radishes" have zero points, and can be consumed without limit. (Compare that to a calorie-based diet.)
By the WW analogy, some screen time, like logging into your bank to check on the accounts, would have zero points while others, like writing comments on HN :), would have points, setting a limit to one's daily use.
Which seems to map well to what the author is proposing ("parameters to evaluate quality, not quantity, of the time spent staring at your screens").
I also don't like "Go on, spend 4 hours on an app. Just make sure you decided to—and that you feel those 4 hours are life well spent." because if the author really believes the alcoholism analogy is true, then it's saying the author either doesn't believe any of the readers actually have a screen time problem, or believes it's okay for an alcoholic to spend 4 hours drinking at the bar with friends, so long if it feels like a life well spent. And something similar for the crack cocaine user.
P.S. In researching the Weight Watcher's/food analogy I found out that the existence of "food addition" is under debate, where the 'language of addiction' is used to explain one's feelings and provide a means of communicating distress and helplessness, rather than being an addition in the same way that drugs are addictive. See https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-018-0203-9 . With my daily allotment of Internet Watchers points nearly gone, I'll not research the scholarly views of "internet addition".
The first few times you mindlessly look at your phone after doing something like that are a real eye opener. You pull it out, unlock it, and stare at a screen full of nothing and ask yourself why you took it out in the first place.
My mood has improved significantly, and I find I suddenly have time for all those things I've wanted to get done but "haven't had the time for". Without a mindless dopamine trickle to default to I am forced to engage in actually meaningful and satisfying activity most of the time to alleviate boredom.
Do not kid yourself that the behaviors these things induce aren't intended. Marketers don't care about your quality of life, or the health of society itself, they just want your money and they will manipulate you into doom scrolling a bunch of barely interesting bullshit in order to shove ads down your throat without a second thought.
Don't you find that a lot of groups, such as your local running club organise over Facebook? Its those groups and even just organising a BBQ with friends that keep me on Facebook.
I am willing to accept some inconvenience in order to be aligned with my goals, which I am learning puts me very much at odds with the average person.
Then deselect Safari. I also got rid of Mail to force myself to check on my laptop.
Settings -> Apps and Notifications -> Chrome -> Disable
I can't even click on links in email. It's great.
Today I think it's okay to not optimize everything for efficiency and it's also okay to waste some time on mindless things.
It's not mindless, it's far more insidious than that. There are people vying for your attention. They are not doing it mindlessly, and they are not doing it for your benefit.
Almost every mindless activity mankind has ever known hasn't required a phone-sized computer with a touch screen, but somehow that's nearly the only one people are doing anymore. I think that speaks to the effectiveness of the algorithms.
But to your point: Amen. Spend some time getting bored. It fixed a lot for me in the motivation department.
Idly dopamine dripping on internet is like spraying salt on your fields. Nothings going to grow.
She says, "ask your rat". Points at my phone.
I reply, "Rat?".
"Yes. It's the size and weight of a rat. It squeaks like a rat"
"And it spies on me".
"Yes".
I meditate or engage with people standing while in lines.
If I'm gonna spend time on a computer I do it on a laptop at home. All my HN browsing is on a laptop.
I keep the phone in a separate room.
I don't give myself the slack to spend time looking at my phone. Its a waste of time anyway and I end up missing out on life.
I wonder if that also relates to my ADHD hyperfocus.
Three little words: It can wait.
People don't do it because it's healthy, obviously.
I set the password of my iPhone to a 20-digit number which I surely won’t be able to memorize while setting it up. I put all my contacts to my Emergency Contacts so that I can call them without unlocking my phone. I’m logged in to WhatsApp Web on my iPad, I use it from there. My iPad has Screen Time on, its settings are controlled from my iPhone. All domains except some necessary government etc. domains are blocked, and new app installing is disabled on the iPad. After setting up Screen Time, I asked my brother to enter a random password for the Screen Time password and forget it.
I created an iOS Shortcut on my iPhone which dictates my password[2] only if I’m X meters away from banned locations (home & school), because every once in a while I need to unlock my phone to do something. I go on a walk/run and unlock my phone in that case. The shortcut is a widget, it works while my phone is locked.
I also time-locked[1] this password to 24 hours (you can only open it after a decryption process which takes 24 hours) and saved it to my DO server in its locked form, because Shortcuts very rarely doesn’t work. I use my server to decrypt if needed.
My computer’s (NixOS) password is time-locked too, as I’m currently still in school and shouldn’t be using it (Little time left to university exam). After the exam, I plan to lock it down to 6 hours a day and writing a browser extension which uses an LLM to close the current tab if I’m not working on my project X and instead say, doomscrolling HN.
1: I use this program I wrote, in case anyone is interested: https://github.com/aerbil313/timelock
2: It doesn’t dictate the password digits for security reasons. It plays a different notification tone for each digit while I’m entering the password. I memorized which sound is which.
What else outcomes might be awaited if "the phone" is running non-free software? I am exactly that kind of person whose healthy screen time of snoop phones is zero because of some attention obstructions - but I have no fatigue issues after heavy sessions behind a screen which is powered by Debian without opening any websites requiring JS.
No social media on the phone, computer only; in fact, turn off all notifications not from live human beings trying to contact me personally.
It seems as if the big social media sites are beginning to appreciate this as well? Seems like the formerly "phone only" sites are getting web interfaces...
Just watch out for your posture
Your mileage depends on your self discipline.
Also I wrote a book on this topic and love sending copies to HN readers who struggle with this problem. Send me an email and I’ll send you a copy.
https://www.amazon.com/Enough-Seeking-less-world-more/dp/B0B...
We had an notebook where you had to log what hours you intended to use it.
I always thought it an effective way that I have now adapted. I keep a notebook full of things I want to read or learn about. Especially if you have a partner to keep you accountable.
It also helps my children learn to use technology instead of it using them.
Not in the book? I don't look at it.
Good uses: listening to good literature on audio books, reading ebooks, reading long form articles on Substack, listening to a good lecture on YouTube.
Bad uses: having any notifications turned on except for specific family members, consuming addictive content of Tic Toc, FB, etc.
EDIT: and use freedom.to tools to limit fun and sometimes useful things like HN and Twitter.
Mobile devices don't seem to make this very easy to do, though, you need a app wrapper of some kind which seems fairly case-specific.
On desktop just use SelfControl.
Consider the implications of "temptation". Consider "bound soul", "free soul", "damned soul".
Consider a soul, and a body, in a subway car, diddling with its phone, on the way to work.
It really sheds light on the subject.
I run into this conundrum every time I consider a dumbphone.
A great statement. I apply this to many things especially video games.
For instance: intense outdoor activity, time spent working in a farm, etc.
The tech we’ve built is insanely addictive.
Or put another way, how the fuck does one begin to like intense outdoor activity at all, much less to the point of it replacing a social media problem (including HN)?
There's only one somewhat reliable "trick" I know that makes people do these kinds of switches: falling in love, or at least getting a crush on, someone who's already doing the healthier thing. Obviously, this method is only available for a small segment of the population and mostly for a few years.
Hiking is just fun. Like, actually fun. If you set up the mental barrier that exercise is bad and sucks and feels bad, then sure, now it's bad.
If you're super unfit it might suck, much like sitting down and bashing out some cool scripts in Python would suck if you had no programming knowledge, but that's fixable for most.
Seems a highly addictive and on paper "unhealthy addiction" was in this case quite gainful for me.
