Module design doesn't seem any harder than class design in JS or Python.
Do you mean the language is generally harder for non-developers? Or that Elixir is harder for JS/Python developers to pick up and write good code? Or something else?
Writing well designed Elixir code does seem to require a fairly different approach from most common OO languages, at least at a surface level. (Although IMO that's more because you can copy OO patterns you've seen before without thinking much about why they're good patterns than because good design in Elixir is much different from OO)
having said that, designing a proper elixir module (which basically is a bunch of functions that operates on a certain data structure usually represented by map of a certain shape) carries a certain level of fundamental understanding of the operation you're doing, which in my experience is one of the hardest things to get correctly.
It also requires a different way of exploring code as you can't do the familiar `.` and see what happens, you can't just do `price.toCentsValue` but need to do `price |> Price.toCentsValue` and so you need to know the existence of the `Price` module, which might not exist and be buried in `Cart` or as an helper in some controller because you did not understand clearly the domain and the modules responsibilities. Attaching behaviour to data is powerful, explorable, and most people are used to it, even if it's the wrong place in principle, with modules this is flipped, it's now data that must thread through operations, and it's not super easy to grasp.
Also, tooling is not that good (dialyzer sucks, intellij plugin not that good, vscode lsp good but still not a proper experience from people coming from c#/java, type annotations are not that readable...), pattern matching and destructuring on fn arguments confuses people and it's not super easy to read, and a million other papercuts related to tooling and syntax.
We don't have many elixir codebases (let's say around 15-25%) and I've seen incessant whining about "we don't want to maintain elixir" simply because the majority of people cannot be bothered to learn another mountain of quirks and papercuts (every lang has them) plus also losing the familiar way of working they already have, and having to remember that for the spot ticket that appears once in a blue moon on jira for elixir. That's why I think elixir needs extra support from the organization, basically in mandating it to be the primary language, teaching people proper design + proper code navigation and structure techniques, etc.
I hope I've been clear in my long winded ramblings; and I still wish a great future for elixir, so it becomes more approachable in average places like mine
Not sure, I think you're picking and choosing things to ramble about. While you can't just do `price.toCentsValue`, and have to call `Price` module, in a OO language, you would need to instantiate `price = new Price(amount 10)` or something before calling `toCentsValue`. This means you're aware of the Price class, same as being aware of the Price module. If anything being aware of the module infact is better IMO since it allows you trace through explicitly what the code is going to do. Your point is correct if you're working through macros though.
about your specific counterpoint, I think it's partially valid; I don't instantiate modules, I might not have named structs but just operate on Maps so I don't know the supposed module name, I might have misplaced the function in another module (while it's very intuitive to stick it to the object in oop)...and a million other things that are way too different for the average joe.
We could certainly debate the objective merits of Elixir vs other languages (which seems to be the primary discourse in this thread and elsewhere) but hearing subjective developer experiences is also critical.
It doesn't matter if Elixir is objectively better or not, if lots of devs who are exposed to it are having a hard time it's worth asking why.
In addition to developers not wanting to expend additional effort to learn a new language or paradigm, I believe there are gaps in the ecosystem especially around medium-advanced topics.
You really do have to love a paradigm to work with it, because paradigm shifts have a cost. Elm's paradigm shift is "do everything declaratively/immutably/non-side-effecty" and the massive (IMHO) benefit of going about things that way is "no runtime errors" (!!!) in addition to quite performant code.
But yes, the cost is there, and it is that you sometimes just want a side-effect to get something done, you sometimes just want to call into another library to get something done, etc.
The thing is, if Elm allowed this, or made it easier, you'd lose the Elm guarantee of "no runtime errors". Which, frankly, is a pretty big one- just inspect any popular domain's web page and you're likely to see dozens of JS errors that are simply hidden from most users, contributing to a "janky" web experience.
I literally just inspected this very page I'm typing this comment on and I see:
This page is in Quirks Mode. Page layout may be impacted. For Standards Mode use “<!DOCTYPE html>”.
Error: Promised response from onMessage listener went out of scope
But yes, if no one does, then Elm is a boondoggle.
I'm dealing with something similar with NixOS. NixOS's big guarantee (which is also big) is basically "no build or runtime failures that are due to misconfigured dependencies". But there's a steep learning curve and scattered documentation. The core idea is amazing, though, and that's what I love. The rest I tolerate while climbing the mountain.
so basically you're all doing things you hate, which is literally the worst possible work environment, and you're trying to use this as a data point for why Elixir "isn't for average coders". I have news for you, dude, you're not even at the "average coders" level, you just work in a "code mill", I'm guessing India.
nevermind the random stab, it's just to make you understand how random some answers are. in any case, no one is trying to touch your precious language, if you can't understand the context in which elixir failed (hot startup that HAD to hire everyone and its dog in 3 months + polyglot environment), not my problem
it doesn’t take much to yeet some python scripts (and more) at the wall and get something to stick. SO, GPT, pick your poison, it’s painfully easy. solved problems as far as the eye can see, with a little glue or tape to hold it together.
elixir demands more of an investment. more than approximately zero is quite a bit if you already have momentum.
(elixir can absolutely be yeeted. not arguing otherwise.)