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0 pointsmorsch14y ago0 comments

You are broadly describing PPAs. Adding a package from a PPA is a three-line (easily scriptable) process: add-apt-repository <url|ppa-name>, apt-get update, apt-get install <package>. Obviously, that doesn't just work for PPAs, but for all apt repositories.

Launchpad does some central indexing ("other versions of this package") for PPAs, but I don't think it's accessible via command line. There is no indication how popular a PPA is, but PPAs are linked to admin user accounts which might help. Packages are signed and the key is auto-imported. Packages co-exist alongside packages from the repos, you can easily switch between different provided versions.

Installing a plain deb is much easier still, but you don't get upgrades (unless the repository is auto-added during install) or signing.

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moe14y ago

You are broadly describing PPAs.

Yes, indeed I am. The point where PPAs fall short is that the user still needs to add a repository when all he wants is to install a package.

I maintain `apt-get install https://foobar.com/pkg` is where it's at. Feel free to query me all you want ("really add this untrusted repo?", "fetch updates from there?", "trust this key?" etc.), but by all means make it a one-liner. Not three, not two, one.

And have proper procedures for all the little corner cases where PPAs fall down. I.e. when the repo goes away or changes URL, when the signing key changes, etc.

It's a matter of polish. Non-technical users need that polish. And technical users like it, too.

morschOP14y ago

Like I said, the three line process is trivially scriptable, so you could make a one-liner script that works like you describe, ie. install https://foobar.com/repositoryX pkg or install ppa:xorg-edgers/ppa nvidia-graphics-drivers. I suppose you could combine the two parameters into a single URL to make it more familiar for users.

I don't see why it'd have to be integrated into apt-get itself, which does other things. The next step would be to create this a GUI process and to integrate it into apt-url, to make it easy to install stuff from the web. Of course making it easier to install stuff from untrusted sources also makes it easier for users to install malware, which I recon is why they haven't made it this easy yet.

If you want to have the ability to pull updates, you need some location to query for them, and that location is the repository. Even if it's just for a single package. If you want to install a single package without updates, there's deb files.

moe14y ago

I don't see why it'd have to be integrated into apt-get itself

That's exactly what I'm talking about. To give just one of many reasons: Because currently 'apt-get update' fails hard as soon as a PPA repo disappears. These corner cases must not exist. This is fundamental infrastructure, save the "easy workarounds" for higher levels.

Apt has been "almost there" for about 10 years now. But "almost" is not good enough - neither for desktop-users, nor for professional deployments with puppet/chef that have to fight the same and similar issues (e.g. idiotic license seed files, key conflicts, daemons auto-starting after installation, unreliable exit codes/error reporting, insufficient logging, insufficient hooks to override defaults).

We're in a state of inertia where everyone is so used to working around ever the same bugs that they're not even recognized as bugs anymore. I should absolutely not need a ~80 line puppet manifest or chef cookbook to make apt behave right. Desktop users should absolutely not have to find a bash-script (no matter how small) to be able to seamlessly install third party software.

I'll quote pg on this: If you think something is supposed to hurt then you're probably doing it wrong.

Apt is a beautiful concept. Sadly the implementation stopped evolving shortly after becoming "good enough" rather than proceeding to "the best we can possibly make it".

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moe14y ago

You are broadly describing PPAs.

Yes, indeed I am. The point where PPAs fall short is that the user still needs to add a repository when all he wants is to install a package.

And have proper procedures for all the little corner cases where PPAs fall down. I.e. when the repo goes away or changes URL, when the signing key changes, etc.

It's a matter of polish. Non-technical users need that polish. And technical users like it, too.

morschOP14y ago

moe14y ago

I don't see why it'd have to be integrated into apt-get itself

I'll quote pg on this: If you think something is supposed to hurt then you're probably doing it wrong.

Apt is a beautiful concept. Sadly the implementation stopped evolving shortly after becoming "good enough" rather than proceeding to "the best we can possibly make it".

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse