Wedding Photographer Spent a Year in Jail After Pleading the Fifth (opens in new tab)

(petapixel.com)

47 pointsjakobdabo2y ago47 comments

47 comments

The guy happened to be a photographer, but his being subpoenaed and held in contempt had to do with him refusing to testify against his corrupt DEA brother. He “pled the Fifth” to avoid, in his own words, testifying against his brother, which is not what the 5th Amendment protects. His lawyer claimed he was pleading the 5th to prevent accidentally perjuring himself, but there’s no such thing as accidentally perjuring oneself. Prosecutors have to prove you willfully and knowingly told a falsehood.

This is just someone paying the cost they have to pay to protect their criminal brother.

Seems like due process working well AFAICT.

redeeman2y ago

> Prosecutors have to prove you willfully and knowingly told a falsehood.

No, they have to make someone else believe you did. How else would this burden of proof be lifted? some form of brain scan that can just say "yeah, he willfully did it!"? no, they put fourth some motive/set of circumstances, and if a bunch of people believe the spin, its "proved"

ethanbond2y ago

Good point! If you are under oath don’t give testimony that your average juror would take to be a willful and knowing lie.

1 more reply

more_corn2y ago

Wait, you’re saying incarceration someone for 18 months without charges or trial is somehow alright?

No. Not alright.

If you think it’s fine I encourage you to go through it. Oh you’re not interested in spending 18mo in jail? Then STFU.

cainxinth2y ago

So, what then? Allow people to be in contempt of court with complete impunity?

1 more reply

ethanbond2y ago

Yes I do think that we (society writ large, acting through the mechanism known as “a democratically elected government”) should be able to compel people to face our justice system.

It’s all part of due process.

wmil2y ago

> It is worth noting that the DOJ defines perjury as a declarant “willfully” making a false statement, that the declarant believed that what they were saying was untrue, and that the statement was related to a material fact. Misremembering a detail is not, in and of itself, perjury.

The prosecutors and judges have a lot of leeway with assuming "willfully". Plenty of people have been convicted because a prosecutor wanted to apply pressure / make an example and choose to believe an incorrect date was a willful lie.

simple-thoughts2y ago

Something about this smells like a bad attorney. Especially the part where he didn’t know that he was free until his card stopped working. But who knows, and it doesn’t matter anyway since the legitimacy of the court system is supposed to rely on common ideas of justice rather than process. If all we have from courts is process, it’s no longer justice, only bureaucratic oppression.

sinuhe692y ago

If not the 5A, on what can one use to refuse to testify in court? The law can not compel you to help the government investigate somebody, right?

HWR_142y ago

The standard other exemptions are doctor-patient, attorney-client, religious leader-religious person, and spousal confidentiality laws. Some, but not all, states also shield journalist's sources. In the last case, in states without a shield law, going to jail to protect a source's identity is considered a professional honor.

jvanderbot2y ago

Oh I believe they can. Isn't it called a supoena?

TillE2y ago

Yes. I mean, that's the whole point of that part of the fifth amendment. There would be no need for an explicit carveout of self-incrimination if the government didn't have the general ability to compel witnesses to testify.

1 more reply

l0wp1t2y ago

They can compell you testify if they offer you immunity.

hgsgm2y ago

Clickbait headline.

Weddinga and photography have no relations to the substance of the article.

imwillofficial2y ago

This is a loop hole that is often exploited to punish people without the application of due process.

Terrible.

fatfingerd2y ago

He doesn't have the right to plead the 5th to avoid testifying against anyone but himself or his spouse, so his attempts to plead the 5th were just nonsense. Making an issue now seems to me like the "justice" connected criminals he was protecting by his contempt are somehow more worthy of rights than everyone they have used this tool on.

tarxvf2y ago

One always has the right to remain silent, for any reason. Compelled speech is immoral. (And rights do not come from the government)

The people telling you otherwise are not interested in protecting you or anyone else.

2 more replies

dragonwriter2y ago

> He doesn't have the right to plead the 5th to avoid testifying against anyone but himself or his spouse, so his attempts to plead the 5th were just nonsense

That’s not true, you can invoke the Fifth anytime testimony might incriminate you, regardless of who it is directly against. If this is founded (which may itself be contested if it isn’t directly against yourself), you can’t be compelled to testify unless the potential for self-incrimination is neutralized by immunity.

However, in this case there was no real self-incrimination concern.

1 more reply

singleshot_2y ago

Nitpick: When you refuse to testify against your spouse you are invoking spousal communication privilege, or spousal testimonial privilege, not 5A.

singleshot_2y ago

When you say loophole, do you mean the fact you have no 5A right against self incrimination once you are grAnted immunity? Or something else?

imwillofficial2y ago

I was talking about holding people in contempt and jailing them for long periods of time.

1 more reply

NoZebra120vClip2y ago

Held in a psych ward too, huh. I wonder what variety of insanity he was guilty of.

I wonder how many comrades were found insane after January 6th.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

47 comments

ethanbond2y ago

This is just someone paying the cost they have to pay to protect their criminal brother.

Seems like due process working well AFAICT.

redeeman2y ago

> Prosecutors have to prove you willfully and knowingly told a falsehood.

ethanbond2y ago

Good point! If you are under oath don’t give testimony that your average juror would take to be a willful and knowing lie.

1 more reply

more_corn2y ago

Wait, you’re saying incarceration someone for 18 months without charges or trial is somehow alright?

No. Not alright.

If you think it’s fine I encourage you to go through it. Oh you’re not interested in spending 18mo in jail? Then STFU.

cainxinth2y ago

So, what then? Allow people to be in contempt of court with complete impunity?

1 more reply

ethanbond2y ago

Yes I do think that we (society writ large, acting through the mechanism known as “a democratically elected government”) should be able to compel people to face our justice system.

It’s all part of due process.

wmil2y ago

simple-thoughts2y ago

sinuhe692y ago

If not the 5A, on what can one use to refuse to testify in court? The law can not compel you to help the government investigate somebody, right?

HWR_142y ago

jvanderbot2y ago

Oh I believe they can. Isn't it called a supoena?

TillE2y ago

1 more reply

l0wp1t2y ago

They can compell you testify if they offer you immunity.

hgsgm2y ago

Clickbait headline.

Weddinga and photography have no relations to the substance of the article.

imwillofficial2y ago

This is a loop hole that is often exploited to punish people without the application of due process.

Terrible.

fatfingerd2y ago

tarxvf2y ago

One always has the right to remain silent, for any reason. Compelled speech is immoral. (And rights do not come from the government)

The people telling you otherwise are not interested in protecting you or anyone else.

2 more replies

dragonwriter2y ago

> He doesn't have the right to plead the 5th to avoid testifying against anyone but himself or his spouse, so his attempts to plead the 5th were just nonsense

However, in this case there was no real self-incrimination concern.

1 more reply

singleshot_2y ago

Nitpick: When you refuse to testify against your spouse you are invoking spousal communication privilege, or spousal testimonial privilege, not 5A.

singleshot_2y ago

When you say loophole, do you mean the fact you have no 5A right against self incrimination once you are grAnted immunity? Or something else?

imwillofficial2y ago

I was talking about holding people in contempt and jailing them for long periods of time.

1 more reply

NoZebra120vClip2y ago

Held in a psych ward too, huh. I wonder what variety of insanity he was guilty of.

I wonder how many comrades were found insane after January 6th.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse