Zero. Because Shopify would have waited until Rust came out in 2015, instead of launching in 2006, and they would never have gotten off the ground and been another failed techbro startup that instead of getting shit done, bikeshedded over languages.
PHP and Ruby apps have generated far more revenues than all the Rust and Golang code combined.
GP’s sarcastic “rails doesn’t scale” implies that it would also be a great choice for people starting afresh in 2023. The reply asks for a comparison with other languages popular in 2023, especially ones that are known for being more performant (lower memory and CPU consumption, lower latency).
And that’s when you’re dragging the conversation back to 2006. It’s not 2006 anymore.
If you're Github or Shopify and can throw (waste?) engineering years at solving a framework specific ecosystem nightmare problems, and have the klout and runway to hire core Ruby and Rails maintainers, then you're probably in a highly unique situation and could use any framework you want.
The rest of us don't see Rails as a great choice for Github. Doubt and questioning.
[1] https://videos.itrevolution.com/watch/550704376/ [2] https://youtu.be/GfhPeOiXDLA?t=725
That's a weird way of framing it.
They stuck with a fork of Rails 2.3 for a long time because the upgrade was deemed too costly, not because their fork was faster.
In the end their performance patches were either outdated or contributed upstream, and they are now on Rails main branch.
And while it was a fork, it was still largely "Rails".
But one thing we can’t measure - how many candidates chose to join Shopify and GitHub because they were keen to work on Ruby? Java had a reputation for being boring, while Ruby was fun and exciting. Their success was possibly tied to this, but we’ll never know for sure.
In 2023 the calculus of what language to choose is different. But these companies are just glad they succeeded while others didn’t.
Ruby is still a great way to start it up. Consider that in 2006-2008, it's deployment story was horrible. Since then, the ruby ecosystem bootstrapped lockfiles, 12 factor app manifesto, and a lot of the conventions we all take for granted nowadays. And while there are certainly enough arguments to bikeshed on, its still a rock solid ecosystem.
> PHP and Ruby apps have generated far more revenues than all the Rust and Golang code combined.
You already stated the obvious: PHP and Ruby apps generated far more revenues simply by existing longer.
Google has a lot of revenue. Pinterest, Hashicorp, Uber, Twitch, Dropbox, etc. all have a good amount of golang and collectively have a lot of revenue. It might need a few more years to tip the scale, but it's closer than suggested here.
Going for .NET/C# would have likely limited anyone to using mostly Windows Server for their infrastructure. Not that it's a bad OS, but .NET Core was released only in 2016 and although Mono came out in 2004, sadly it never got the love it deserved and was rather unreliable (otherwise we would have seen way more cross platform development before .NET Core). Oh, also, turns out that LINQ (which is pretty cool) was only released in 2007, though that still puts them a bit ahead of Java I guess, although I can't comment on when it landed in Mono.
Going with Java would have meant using something like Java 6, whereas the first truly decent version (in my eyes) was Java 8, which came out in 2014. Of course, the older language version and runtime wouldn't be a huge issue, however projects like Spring Boot only came out in 2014 and before then most people would either use Spring, Java EE (now Jakarta EE) or a similar framework from back then. I've worked with both and it wasn't pleasant - essentially the XML configuration hell with layers of indirection that people lament.
I mean, either would have probably been doable, but it's not like other stacks are without fault (even the ones I cannot really comment on).
Java 6 would still blow the water out of Ruby's slow interpreter.
Being pleasant isn't relevant for performance.
Haskell, OCaml and D are niche languages, probably aren't mature enough now to use for a production system that needs to scale (in terms of org growth and building complex systems).
Java web frameworks were also terrible in 2006 (this is the Java era that gave Java it's reputation) and the only thing worse for productivity I can think of is C++ hahaha ...
All of them were faster and used less resources than a very slow interpreted language, by having JIT and AOT compilers, state of the art GC and great IDE offerings, even the niche ones had better tooling (Leksah and Merlin, versus nothing).
The trap is when you start growing and it is hard to change. Because the features that took 1-2 months in RoR might take 3-4 months (or more!) to port to another language, and do you really want to stop your working business when it isn’t a problem?
Because Rails performs totally fine at small-mid startup scale. It’s only when you start getting a couple years old with lots of users that it starts to bite you. But at that point you already have gotten further than 90% of startups ever even make it. And at that point, honestly there are solutions for that too, like gradually pulling the poor-performing bits out into faster languages.
Writing this as someone who works for a startup that uses RoR, and I’ve seen it blow up over several years. I curse RoR daily because it pisses me off, but I don’t think this company would’ve gotten this far if it didn’t have the RoR speed at the beginning.
So are you better off starting your company on Go/Rust/Java? Maybe. But if getting to market fast will help you win, it’s hard to beat RoR.
This is such an absurd take. Do you really think startups lose runway because of the runtime performance of their code, and not failing to achieve PMF, overhiring, or spending too much on stupid techbro bullshit?
