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0 pointsanon352y ago0 comments

OK but then what is the thing in the middle, between documents and applications?

There are fantastic, beautiful interactive experiences (for lack of a better word) that are obviously not documents (they can't be represented on paper, there is code running) but they're not really applications, either (they are fully offline, self-contained, state that's only evident on the page).

But they are, universally: dynamic.

Examples: - https://ciechanow.ski/mechanical-watch/ - http://worrydream.com/TenBrighterIdeas/ - even : https://neal.fun/space-elevator/

This is what I think the future of textbooks and presentations should be. But I think part of the problem is that not only do we not have tools geared toward creating them, we don't even have a name for these things. If we say "document", they flunk the pdf test. If we say "web application", they are lumped into the same lumbering category as office docs and enterprise software.

Maybe Nota is a step in the right direction. But it'd be an even better step if it didn't call itself "21st century documents", if for no other reason than to defend against the valid criticism you levied against it.

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function_seven2y ago

When I was a kid, we called it "multimedia". Encarta being the example that comes to mind. My school library had some other interactive encyclopedia that came on a 6–CD-ROM magazine changer (the Pioneer style, if you remember music CD changers). I remember being absolutely flabbergasted at the sheer amount of megabytes sitting in that unassuming disc magazine.

That term is really quaint these days, and it doesn't fully capture what you're talking about. IIRC, it was more prepackaged animations, photos, video, and music; rather than "dynamic code running on paper"

"Dynagraph"? Sorry, that's lame, but there's my entry.

Digit-Al2y ago

Interactive media?

one-punch2y ago

Some of these interactive simulations for learning are called “Explorable Explanations” [1], coined in 2011 by Bret Victor, the author of your second link (worrydream.com), which also talks about “Explorable Explanations”.

For more examples, see [2].

Very much agree that this is what explanations and presentations should be in the modern age. I think a documentation language (what Nota and Typst aim to be) is still needed in this age of Large Language Models, when the ideas are more complex than those expressible by natural languages.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explorable_explanation

[2]: https://explorabl.es/

DistractionRect2y ago

Ha, I was totally thinking about the watch blog too!

I think that one is rather a special case. You could print it out with the first still of each bit and probably get out 90% of the content/context, and modify document to print out a few stills from each interactive part and get the same intellectual content. In it's case, the interactivity is superfluous, it's there to spark joy. It's really an example of a document with outstanding figures/visual aid - the interactivity is just a bonus.

Similarly, the space elevator could be a picture book/pdf. The interactive bits there also spark joy.

The tenbrighterideas page mostly annoyed me. It's just bastardizing structure to be "interactive", which is to say most of the information is hidden away behind a bunch of clicks and it could have been a document, with one page dedicated to each idea.

MrJohz2y ago

I strongly disagree with the idea that the interactive elements are only there to "spark joy" - in both of the cases you mentioned, the interactive elements are pretty fundamental. Their purpose is to let you get somewhat hands-on with the concepts the text is discussing - to allow you to take apart the watch yourself, at your own pace, and understand what all the pieces are doing.

I'm sure you can convey the same information in text format (like you say, you could just print out the page), but these particular sites would be a lot weaker, because part of their explanatory power is the interactivity.

The original quote was that dynamism was "the last thing I want in a document", and I think these interactive diagrams and explainers directly show how useful dynamism can be in conveying information.

That's not to say that all dynamism is good - I don't usually want you to use Javascript to just load a new page, my browser can do that just fine - but every medium can be abused. That doesn't mean that medium is bad!

DistractionRect2y ago

I'm not saying they're only to spark joy, but to me at least, their contribution is mostly in that category. I didn't really find it central to the content in any of the examples.

To my point it's "the last thing I want in a document", I stand by it. What I mean is I should be able to print it and really lose nothing central to the content. Yes, digital offers features which may enrich the experience/use/navigation, but at the same time there's questions of accessibility and ease of parsing. If I _have_ to interact with things to get the information//content out, it's effectively a web app, and not a document, and if done wrong it actively interferes with my ability to absorb the information. IMO the brighter ideas page firmly falls under that last point.

The watch page is wonderful, and the visuals and interactivity is done masterfully, in such a way it's obtrusive and not _required_ to understand the document.

I'd classify the elevator page as a web app, but there's really nothing keeping it from being a document/children's book.

And I just really, really, did not like the brighter ideas page. I think the content is good, but the execution got in the way instead of adding to the experience.

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0 pointsanon352y ago0 comments

OK but then what is the thing in the middle, between documents and applications?

But they are, universally: dynamic.

Examples: - https://ciechanow.ski/mechanical-watch/ - http://worrydream.com/TenBrighterIdeas/ - even : https://neal.fun/space-elevator/

0 comments

function_seven2y ago

"Dynagraph"? Sorry, that's lame, but there's my entry.

Digit-Al2y ago

Interactive media?

one-punch2y ago

For more examples, see [2].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explorable_explanation

[2]: https://explorabl.es/

DistractionRect2y ago

Ha, I was totally thinking about the watch blog too!

Similarly, the space elevator could be a picture book/pdf. The interactive bits there also spark joy.

MrJohz2y ago

DistractionRect2y ago

I'm not saying they're only to spark joy, but to me at least, their contribution is mostly in that category. I didn't really find it central to the content in any of the examples.

The watch page is wonderful, and the visuals and interactivity is done masterfully, in such a way it's obtrusive and not _required_ to understand the document.

I'd classify the elevator page as a web app, but there's really nothing keeping it from being a document/children's book.

And I just really, really, did not like the brighter ideas page. I think the content is good, but the execution got in the way instead of adding to the experience.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse