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0 pointshalostatue2y ago0 comments

Try longer than my career (approaching 30 years in the business), often pushed by the business and kicked into high gear with the rapid need for development resources with the combination of Y2K mitigation and the first dot-com boom.

Yes, there are a lot of "developers". But there are also software engineers, even if our engineering craft is less-well developed by the standards of civil engineering or mechanical engineering. I understand engineering organizations (like those in Canada) who oppose the use of the term "software engineer" because there's no common code of practice or standards in the same way that those who wear the iron ring claim is incorrect.

I think that we, as a profession, need a code of ethics (and the ACM has a good one, https://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics/) and the application of software in certain cases should absolutely be regulated the same way that the various physical engineering practices are (healthcare, AI, finance, legal applications) so that there are consequences for the businesses and potentially the software engineers involved with those businesses when they cause harm (see sentencing guideline software in the US; see the contract that developed the Royal Mail "audit" software that could never work as advertised; see the rampant fraud that is crypto; see the abuse of generative models to software-wash copyright violations).

But the lack of regulatory bodies does not mean that there's not a practice of engineering involved, it just means that there's no regulatory body that governs said practice.

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mb77332y ago

> Yes, there are a lot of "developers". But there are also software engineers, even if our engineering craft is less-well developed by the standards of civil engineering or mechanical engineering. I understand engineering organizations (like those in Canada) who oppose the use of the term "software engineer" because there's no common code of practice or standards in the same way that those who wear the iron ring claim is incorrect

Just to clarify, there's no issue in Canada with "software engineer" specifically. "Engineer" is the protected term, and you have to be licensed to use it. So the issue applies to calling yourself any kind of engineer without being licensed.

If you are a licensed professional engineer in the software field, you can refer to yourself as a software engineer. This is just uncommon because there are not a lot of programs that grant BEng in software, the licensing is rarely relevant, and most people take CS anyway.

WelcomeShorty2y ago

> "Engineer" is the protected term, and you have to be licensed to use it.

The IEEE documented that a little different:

It is the IEEE-USA position that:

• Individuals who have graduated with an engineering degree from an ABET/EAC accredited program of engineering education should not be prohibited from using the title “Engineer.”

• The protected titles “Professional Engineer,” “Licensed Engineer,” “Registered Engineer,” and variations thereof, should be reserved for those whose education and experience qualify them to practice in a manner that protects public health, safety and welfare -- and who have been licensed to practice engineering by a jurisdiction.

From: https://ieeeusa.org/assets/public-policy/positions/workforce...

halostatueOP2y ago

That seems to me to be a much more sensible position than that of the provincial licensing bodies here in Canada, who attempt to regulate all uses of the term "engineer", even though many uses are orthogonal to the regulated profession.

The objection is IMO as linguistically specious as the one aimed by MDs against PhDs. Both are entitled to the honorific Doctor, and context is as important as anything else.

mb77332y ago

I was explaining the view of the governing bodies in Canada.

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0 pointshalostatue2y ago0 comments

But the lack of regulatory bodies does not mean that there's not a practice of engineering involved, it just means that there's no regulatory body that governs said practice.

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mb77332y ago

WelcomeShorty2y ago

> "Engineer" is the protected term, and you have to be licensed to use it.

The IEEE documented that a little different:

It is the IEEE-USA position that:

• Individuals who have graduated with an engineering degree from an ABET/EAC accredited program of engineering education should not be prohibited from using the title “Engineer.”

From: https://ieeeusa.org/assets/public-policy/positions/workforce...

halostatueOP2y ago

The objection is IMO as linguistically specious as the one aimed by MDs against PhDs. Both are entitled to the honorific Doctor, and context is as important as anything else.

mb77332y ago

I was explaining the view of the governing bodies in Canada.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse