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0 points_a_a_a_2y ago0 comments

> In existing languages, where there is no way to distinguish between multiple execution phases, it is impossible to naturally represent this idea that an object has methods that can only be executed from within a specific execution phase.

I'm sure I'm getting the wrong end of the stick but isn't this possible to ensure using typing? Very simple dependent typing/phantom types/bog standard normal types?

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chriscbr2y ago

The current type system is designed around the experience of writing code like the example below where objects can have two kinds of methods:

  let bucket = new cloud.Bucket();
  let api = new cloud.Api();
  
  // api.get is a preflight method - it generates cloud infrastructure
  api.post("/hello", inflight (req) => {
    // bucket.put is an inflight method - it performs data plane operations, at "runtime"
    bucket.put("data.txt", req.body ?? "empty");
  });

Importantly, if you try calling bucket.put() outside of one of these "inflight" scopes or try calling api.get() inside one of these "inflight" scopes, you'll get compilation errors - not runtime errors.

Could this style of API be achieved in an existing language? I think it's an open ended question - I'm not sure. But I reckon it gets into complex framework territory (or may require injecting modifications into existing compilers, which presents other challenges). But I'd love to see more exploration into this direction.

_a_a_a_OP2y ago

Okay, I partly take back what I said in my sibling post. Your "(req) => {..}" lambda has to be constrained only to contain inflight methods.

Yes, it can be done by either building the contents of the lambda in some truly horrid way (you'd effectively be building an AST at runtime). The alternative is to get hold of the AST/parse tree at runtime (which I believe.NET can do if you ask it nicely, but that is very specifically .NET) which you can then analyse.

The first way is utterly vile though workable and language agnostic, the second way is definitely tied to one platform. If there's third way I can't think of it ATM.

ljm2y ago

What I was getting at is that it seems to depend on the compiler to know the difference between preflight and inflight because the calling convention is identical.

I personally don't think it's intuitive that function calls using the same syntax either emit terraform code or JS. It's like mixing compile time macros and code into one.

_a_a_a_OP2y ago

With respect, and also with the understanding that I do not comprehend your domain very well so I may be talking out of my but with static typing I think it is possible, perhaps if a bit less pretty.

I can try and put something together in C# but not right now I'm afraid (it would be a good exercise for me as I've only read up on these, not actually use them personally, although I plan to start very soon for my own personal work). There was some examples going round here https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/zm7f9/phantom_... which may help.

Again, I may be misunderstanding your domain completely, so bear it in mind please.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

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chriscbr2y ago

The current type system is designed around the experience of writing code like the example below where objects can have two kinds of methods:

  let bucket = new cloud.Bucket();
  let api = new cloud.Api();
  
  // api.get is a preflight method - it generates cloud infrastructure
  api.post("/hello", inflight (req) => {
    // bucket.put is an inflight method - it performs data plane operations, at "runtime"
    bucket.put("data.txt", req.body ?? "empty");
  });

_a_a_a_OP2y ago

Okay, I partly take back what I said in my sibling post. Your "(req) => {..}" lambda has to be constrained only to contain inflight methods.

The first way is utterly vile though workable and language agnostic, the second way is definitely tied to one platform. If there's third way I can't think of it ATM.

ljm2y ago

What I was getting at is that it seems to depend on the compiler to know the difference between preflight and inflight because the calling convention is identical.

I personally don't think it's intuitive that function calls using the same syntax either emit terraform code or JS. It's like mixing compile time macros and code into one.

_a_a_a_OP2y ago

With respect, and also with the understanding that I do not comprehend your domain very well so I may be talking out of my but with static typing I think it is possible, perhaps if a bit less pretty.

Again, I may be misunderstanding your domain completely, so bear it in mind please.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse