I think this is wrong as well. Suppose you are a independent technician repairing cars. Over time you notice, that, say BMW car quality used to be good but has gone to shit. That's not public information, but you would be allowed to short BMW stock in the hopes that, once public catches on, their share price will tank.
In fact half the point of stock trading if for you to do research, including your own investigation and testing. And then use that as an advantage. In the process you are bringing the price close to it's true value.
P.S. nothing against BMW, just an example.
The gp's wording is a little confusing but he's just trying to explain the transitive logic of non-public information transferring from a "true insider" to an outsider is also "insider trading" and thus illegal. Think of it as the provenance of information coming from an insider.
E.g. Martha Stewart is an "outsider" and not an insider of drug company ImClone but she was found guilty of insider trading because she did get confidential information from insiders at the Merrill Lynch brokerage that handled stock trades for the ImClone CEO: https://www.sec.gov/news/press/2003-69.htm
Your scenario of a mechanic repairing cars, or somebody counting the number of cars in various Walmart parking lots, or a hacker that discovers a serious website vulnerability that may cause embarrassment and stock price drop ... none of those situations have a corporate insider in that information disclosure loop.
Minor correction: she was not convicted of insider trading. That charge was dismissed. She was only convicted of lying to investigators.
The judge dismissed a charge of "securities fraud", which claimed that she had defrauded investors in her own company by making false statements to the public.
The jury convicted her of "false statements", obstruction, and conspiracy.
Can Apple buy stock in a chip manufacture before they sign a deal with them?
Can they short them before not renewing a contract?
Another way of asking, is trading other companies based on insider knowledge from your company legal?
I was trying to avoid the use of "insider," because people tend to assume that means employees or directors, but that is not the case. Outside organizations who have, as an example, signed an NDA with the organization may learn of material non-public information, and trading on that could constitute insider trading.
Right, but information available to those with a confidentiality obligation can still be traded on if acquired legally. That's the crucial point. It's not enough for it to be non-public and material, you must also be in breach of a fiduciary duty (or acting in concert with somebody who is). For example, if a Boeing CEO was at a coffee shop discussing an upcoming acquisition at the table next to you, you'd be able to trade on it, even though it was confidential information not available to the general public and obviously material to Boeing's stock price.
IANAL, but if she traded a picosecond after tweeting: no. If she has zillions of followers and traded a year later: yes, because ’the public’ could be aware of the content of the tweet. A judge will have to decide on in-betweens. When doing that they likely will take into account how open Twitter/X is.
> If I saw the tweet and trade is that legal?
Again, IANAL, but I would think so, if she has ‘enough’ followers.
Regardless of when you learned it, the quality of BMW's cars (in this example) became public information when they started selling them to the public.
Now, however, if an internal employee told the technician that BMW had removed all QA checks from their line, and (s)he should expect quality to fall precipitously in the years ahead, that would be different.
https://www.compliancebuilding.com/2014/02/06/working-on-the...
Roadroad workers notice a bunch of visitors in suits, boss asked them to put together an inventory of property.
So they thought the company was going to be sold and profited on it.
SEC charged them, courts found them not guilty of insider trading.
Now, if you learned from someone inside that they were going to do a recall but had not announced it yet, on the other hand...
That being said, I am sure that insider trading is widespread (e.g. above example). The thing is that is it not easy to detect unless you are already on the radar.
"Non public" usually means an information that's internal to the company, not necessarily something that can't be gathered independently
Google's menu for the week in their offices is "non public" but not material information
