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0 pointshnfong1y ago0 comments

This is a common claim.

But...

I haven't seen any credible claims of how Chinese was actually "westernized" aside of Chinese writers seemingly randomly pointing fingers and blaming European influence for a change of style initiated by the younger generation.

Even your example shouldn't convince anyone, since in English we don't say "do improvement", and generally English doesn't overuse "do <noun>" much.

I've read an attempt to connect the dots here: https://news.mingpao.com/ins/%E6%96%87%E6%91%98/article/2017...

Which was ridiculous if you read carefully, and I've gleefully written an article shredding it apart -- https://hnfong.github.io/public-crap/writings/2020/%E7%A9%B6...

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g9yuayon1y ago

Yup, 余光中 is one of such authors who urge people to write authentic instead of "westernized" Chinese. I wouldn't call it "blame", though. Just like in English, there's certain standard on good writing. In Chinese, 白话文 is really the way to go. That's why among the authors in the May 4th movement, 钱钟书´s modern Chinese is just so much more pleasant to read than Lu Xun's. If you don't believe me, try reading his translation of Nikolai Gogol's Dead Souls. Oh my...

Joan Pinkham wrote a book titled The Translator's Guide to Chinglish[1]. It's a fun book to read and really teaches native Chinese speakers how to write good English. Interestingly, a lot of the lessons in that book can be applied to Chinese writing too, such as avoiding nounification, and removing duplication. For instance, just say "dislike" instead of "to have a dislike for". And instead of saying "give guidance to", just say "guide".

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Translators-Guide-Chinglish-Joan-Pink...

hnfongOP1y ago

I maintain that "blame" is the right word. He doesn't establish any real casual connections of poor Chinese writing to European linguistic influence, so it seems to me that he is just pointing fingers at some convenient villain (European/English influence) instead of admitting that maybe people are just bad at writing.

Or it occurred at a time when literacy rates massively increased, and thus there was some vulgarization of the language to some extent.

I think he explains how to write better Chinese pretty well, I just don't think pointing fingers at other languages is helpful especially if it isn't grounded in fact or evidence.

numpad01y ago

I can feel a sort of a double translation shims hiding in that example. Chinese "改进" would work as a verb on its own but dictionary wise it will tend to mentally map to noun form "improvement" than the verb form "[to]improve", and that necessitates a "do" verb, which plausibly results in bloated forms such as "进行改进"(forward going [with] improving forward).

Common claims are often common for reasons...

g9yuayon1y ago

Well in this case Chinese is like Spanish and Japanese, a verb can also be used as a gerund.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 pointshnfong1y ago0 comments

This is a common claim.

But...

Even your example shouldn't convince anyone, since in English we don't say "do improvement", and generally English doesn't overuse "do <noun>" much.

I've read an attempt to connect the dots here: https://news.mingpao.com/ins/%E6%96%87%E6%91%98/article/2017...

Which was ridiculous if you read carefully, and I've gleefully written an article shredding it apart -- https://hnfong.github.io/public-crap/writings/2020/%E7%A9%B6...

0 comments

g9yuayon1y ago

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Translators-Guide-Chinglish-Joan-Pink...

hnfongOP1y ago

Or it occurred at a time when literacy rates massively increased, and thus there was some vulgarization of the language to some extent.

I think he explains how to write better Chinese pretty well, I just don't think pointing fingers at other languages is helpful especially if it isn't grounded in fact or evidence.

numpad01y ago

Common claims are often common for reasons...

g9yuayon1y ago

Well in this case Chinese is like Spanish and Japanese, a verb can also be used as a gerund.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse