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0 pointssriram_malhar1y ago0 comments

> I don't think that's quite true. The lift here is that the state machine does not do any IO on its own.

Here is a simple counter example. Suppose you have to process a packet that contains many sequences (strings/binary blobs) prefixed by 4 bytes of length.

You are not always guaranteed to get the length bytes or the string all in one go. In a sequential system you'd accumulate the string as follows

   handle_input(...)
       while not received 4 bytes
          accumulate in buf

       len = toInt(buf[0..4])

       while not received len bytes
          accumulate in buf

If implemented as a state machine ,these would require two await points to assemble the string. Flattening this out into a state machine manually is a pain.

0 comments

Arnavion1y ago

I'm not sure what part of that is supposed to be a pain. The sans-io equivalent would be:

    handle_input(buf) -> Result {
        if len(buf) < 4 { return Error::IncompletePacket }

        len = toInt(buf[0..4])

        if len(buf) < 4 + len { return Error::IncompletePacket }

        packet = buf[4..(4 + len)]
        return Ok { packet: packet, consumed: 4 + len }
    }

where the semantics of `Error::IncompletePacket` are that the caller reads more into the buffer from its actual IO layer and then calls handle_input() again. So your "while not received required bytes: accumulate in buf" simply become "if len < required: return Error::IncompletePacket"

tel1y ago

I don't think that implementation is particularly good, although this is a big trick with Sans-IO: is the event loop responsible for buffering the input bytes? Or are the state machines?

In effect, you have to be thoughtful (and explicit!) about the event loop semantics demanded by each state machine and, as the event loop implementer, you have to satisfy all of those semantics faithfully.

A few alternatives include your version, one where `handle_input` returns something like `Result<Option<Packet>>` covering both error cases and successful partial consumption cases, one where `handle_input` tells the event loop how much additional input it knows it needs whenever it finishes parsing a length field and requires that the event loop not call it again until it can hand it exactly that many bytes.

This can all be pretty non-trivial. And then you'd want to compose state machines with different anticipated semantics. It's not obvious how to do this well.

sriram_malharOP1y ago

Fair enough. So let's complicate it a little. If you have hierarchical variable sized structures within structures (e.g. java class file), then you need a stack of work in progress (pointers plus length) at every level. In fact, the moment you need a stack to simulate what would otherwise have been a series of function calls, it becomes a pain.

Or let's say you have a loop ("retry three times before giving up"), then you have to store the index in a recoverable struct. Put this inside a nested loop, and you know what I mean.

I have run into these situations enough that a flat state machine becomes a pain to deal with.

These are nicely solved using coroutines. That way you can have function related temporary state, IO-related state and stacks all taken care of simply.

tel1y ago

I agree totally, it wasn't my intention to say that there aren't protocols which require non-trivial state machines to implement their behavior.

To be more clear, I'm contesting that the only thing being discussed in the article is this convenience around writing state machines. I think whether or not you have to write non-trivial state machines by hand or have them generated by some convenient syntax is orthogonal to the bigger insight of what Sans-IO is going after.

I think the most important part here is that you write these state machines such that they perform no impure calculation on their own. In other words, you write state machines that must be driven by an event loop which is responsible for interpreting commands from those state machines and that all IO (and more generally, all impure calculation) is performed exclusively by that event loop.

It's much more possible to compose machines like this because they don't make as many assumptions on the runtime. It's not that they're reading from a blocking or non-blocking socket. It's that they process some chunk of bytes and _possibly_ want to send some chunk of bytes back. The event loop, constructed by the user of the state machine, is responsible for deciding how to read/write those bytes.

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Arnavion1y ago

I'm not sure what part of that is supposed to be a pain. The sans-io equivalent would be:

    handle_input(buf) -> Result {
        if len(buf) < 4 { return Error::IncompletePacket }

        len = toInt(buf[0..4])

        if len(buf) < 4 + len { return Error::IncompletePacket }

        packet = buf[4..(4 + len)]
        return Ok { packet: packet, consumed: 4 + len }
    }

tel1y ago

I don't think that implementation is particularly good, although this is a big trick with Sans-IO: is the event loop responsible for buffering the input bytes? Or are the state machines?

This can all be pretty non-trivial. And then you'd want to compose state machines with different anticipated semantics. It's not obvious how to do this well.

sriram_malharOP1y ago

Or let's say you have a loop ("retry three times before giving up"), then you have to store the index in a recoverable struct. Put this inside a nested loop, and you know what I mean.

I have run into these situations enough that a flat state machine becomes a pain to deal with.

These are nicely solved using coroutines. That way you can have function related temporary state, IO-related state and stacks all taken care of simply.

tel1y ago

I agree totally, it wasn't my intention to say that there aren't protocols which require non-trivial state machines to implement their behavior.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse