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0 pointscbsmith13y ago0 comments

There seems to be some kind of impedance. I'm not suggesting you can avoid using an HMAC and get away with just a hash.

Let's be clear about what an HMAC is. It's pretty much what this article describes, but executed with a specific protocol that avoids exploitable weaknesses in naive approaches.

It is literally:

    first_pad = a_constant_block ^ key
    second_pad = another_constant_block ^ key
    hash(second_pad + hash(first_pad + message))

It's that similar. The biggest non-security consequence is that you have to call your hash function twice. If that is a problem, you have bigger problems. If you are using a secure hash to authenticate a message, you should always use HMAC.

> In practice, attackers just guess the bit length of the message by writing the Ruby script that generates the 100 candidate messages at different expected bit lengths and feeding them to their fuzzer. The bit length issue is not a real one in practice.

You're closer to addressing the real complexity involved in cracking it than the original article. I agree that in principle it isn't hard to break a naive hash-based digest authentication. I'm merely pointing out that it isn't simple.

Also... not sure why they'd have to use Ruby or why that is relevant...

> It is a very, very bad idea to put off fixing a problem like this because you've been led to believe by someone on a message board that MD padding is going to be an obstacle to attackers.

No. It's a very, very bad idea to ever go down this road in the first place. Start with a MAC. If you think you can be more clever than the collective expertise of the field, study cryptography and prove it, but until you've finished studying it, do what they say. History is littered with people who thought they knew just enough about cryptography that they could do things their own way without consequences (WEP anyone?).

In general I'm all for encouraging amateurs to compete with the pros, but cryptography is definitely one of those fields where it can appear deceptively simple to achieve your goals, and it totally, totally, totally is not.

0 comments

tptacek13y ago

It's fine that you want to tell the thread what HMAC was, or point out that the exploit for this problem isn't literally 100 words of blog post long.

But the reality is that this is an exploit that everyone on our team, and I assume all our real competitors teams, are expected to be able to bust out on demand. It's not hard. It comes up a couple times a year in web apps, we spot it, and we exploit it. It's really not one of the more interesting or involved crypto flaws to exploit.

You wrote:

Still, you can see how that leaves a distinct subset of cases where you'd be exposed. SHA-1, along with most secure hash functions, appends the length of the message the end of the source text before performing the hash function. That means that if you add even one byte to the string, you have now changed the last 8 bytes that were fed in to the "original" hash function. Oh, and your extra byte goes in before those bytes, so not only did you change those 8 bytes, but you shifted them down a byte.

Well, respectfully, no shit. Was it your understanding that the Flickr team screwed their MAC up so badly that you didn't even have to guess glue padding to pull the attack off? You wrote this paragraph without context; you even followed it with a sentence about how you might be safer if you could fit your application state in a SHA1 message block because I forget why that could possibly matter?

Next time, when you want to point out how deceptive the apparent simplicity of a crypto concept is, choose one of the defender's problems. The attacker's problems are mostly deceptive in the opposite direction.

cbsmithOP13y ago

I think I was pretty clear that extension attacks work. I was clear that they work despite features of a hash algorithm that would appear to address the issues highlighted in the article. I was also very clear that it is the defender's problems that are deceptively hard.

In a couple of cases I probably should have said "simple" instead of "easy". "Easy" implies more about effort than complexity. At some points I meant "little effort" and other points I meant "little complexity", but I used the same word for both, so that's bad.

Still, I don't get how you inferred the above from this, which to me reads as "any efforts you might make to address this problem your own way will almost certainly fail miserably":

It's just not nearly as easy as this article suggests, and conclusions one might draw from this article (like you can solve this problem by feeding all source text in to the hash algorithm backwards) are likely ill founded.

tptacek13y ago

I think your comments have been misleading, so I corrected them. Nothing personal.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 pointscbsmith13y ago0 comments

There seems to be some kind of impedance. I'm not suggesting you can avoid using an HMAC and get away with just a hash.

Let's be clear about what an HMAC is. It's pretty much what this article describes, but executed with a specific protocol that avoids exploitable weaknesses in naive approaches.

It is literally:

    first_pad = a_constant_block ^ key
    second_pad = another_constant_block ^ key
    hash(second_pad + hash(first_pad + message))

Also... not sure why they'd have to use Ruby or why that is relevant...

> It is a very, very bad idea to put off fixing a problem like this because you've been led to believe by someone on a message board that MD padding is going to be an obstacle to attackers.

0 comments

tptacek13y ago

It's fine that you want to tell the thread what HMAC was, or point out that the exploit for this problem isn't literally 100 words of blog post long.

You wrote:

cbsmithOP13y ago

Still, I don't get how you inferred the above from this, which to me reads as "any efforts you might make to address this problem your own way will almost certainly fail miserably":

tptacek13y ago

I think your comments have been misleading, so I corrected them. Nothing personal.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse