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0 pointsWinstonSmith841y ago0 comments

Such decisions are way above the pay grade of random engineers

0 comments

Never forget Kareem Serageldin - the one person who went to jail for the 2007 financial crisis.

In fairness, he was an exec making $7M per year - so not a nobody, but he was only managing 70 people (Credit Suisse was a ~50k person company), and obviously not the only person who should've went to jail.

sgammon1y ago

A systemic failure doesn't necessarily mean that people should go to jail; Kareem lied about the price of bonds and deserved jail time.

underlipton1y ago

Everyone lied about the price of bonds, that's why our major investment banks still exist (though, I suppose CS doesn't at this point; that's another story).

sgammon1y ago

What is your point? (1) That others should have gone to jail too, or that (2) Kareem was only doing what everyone else was doing?

For (1), were other people prosecuted? Maybe there was insufficient evidence or process issues that got in the way of additional convictions.

For (2), how does that excuse a crime?

Kareem's story is fascinating for many reasons and I don't find lying about bond prices to be a crime to hate someone over. But, a crime it is, nonetheless.

1 more reply

lupusreal1y ago

Whether to do something you know is morally wrong or refuse and quit is always your pay grade.

And don't give me the Yuppie Nuremberg Defense. "I was just following orders... because I've got a mortgage!" That doesn't fly when lives are on the line.

tsunamifury1y ago

I think people seem to have a very romantic notion that there is some meeting where all the engineers get together and decide whether or not they are going to kill their users or not.

bumby1y ago

Not to "kill their users" but they realistically have meeting to vote on whether the system is "go/nogo". This is the basic structure of many aerospace designs. If you ever watch a rocket launch, they are literally checking in with every system owner for that decision. Prior to even getting to the launch date, there are meetings where they are checking with the designers for similar decisions. There are good documentaries/movies that show this dramatized in examples like the shuttle Challenger.

tsunamifury1y ago

Yea and with challenger only one engineer raised the alarm while a large group of well meaning engineers overrode him.

This is reality. Decisions aren’t kill/not kill.

1 more reply

AshamedCaptain1y ago

Wait, what? I'm sure here we can relate to the software side of things. How many times have you been in a position of saying "go/nogo" where saying "nogo" didn't imply it would also be your last day on the job? (or at least a severe Career Limiting Move)

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bumby1y ago

They aren’t in these industries. Relatively low-level engineers have the capability (some would say duty) to stop work. Typically, they have a different chain of command for that very reason.

phone86753091y ago

No they are not! You are responsible for what you sign off on/seal. If you don't want that responsibility then join another profession.

bumby1y ago

Importantly here, Boeing doesn’t require licensed engineers because they operate under an industrial exemption.

phone86753091y ago

Sounds like it's time for that to go away

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

onlyrealcuzzo1y ago

Never forget Kareem Serageldin - the one person who went to jail for the 2007 financial crisis.

sgammon1y ago

A systemic failure doesn't necessarily mean that people should go to jail; Kareem lied about the price of bonds and deserved jail time.

underlipton1y ago

Everyone lied about the price of bonds, that's why our major investment banks still exist (though, I suppose CS doesn't at this point; that's another story).

sgammon1y ago

What is your point? (1) That others should have gone to jail too, or that (2) Kareem was only doing what everyone else was doing?

For (1), were other people prosecuted? Maybe there was insufficient evidence or process issues that got in the way of additional convictions.

For (2), how does that excuse a crime?

Kareem's story is fascinating for many reasons and I don't find lying about bond prices to be a crime to hate someone over. But, a crime it is, nonetheless.

1 more reply

lupusreal1y ago

Whether to do something you know is morally wrong or refuse and quit is always your pay grade.

And don't give me the Yuppie Nuremberg Defense. "I was just following orders... because I've got a mortgage!" That doesn't fly when lives are on the line.

tsunamifury1y ago

I think people seem to have a very romantic notion that there is some meeting where all the engineers get together and decide whether or not they are going to kill their users or not.

bumby1y ago

tsunamifury1y ago

Yea and with challenger only one engineer raised the alarm while a large group of well meaning engineers overrode him.

This is reality. Decisions aren’t kill/not kill.

1 more reply

AshamedCaptain1y ago

2 more replies

bumby1y ago

They aren’t in these industries. Relatively low-level engineers have the capability (some would say duty) to stop work. Typically, they have a different chain of command for that very reason.

phone86753091y ago

No they are not! You are responsible for what you sign off on/seal. If you don't want that responsibility then join another profession.

bumby1y ago

Importantly here, Boeing doesn’t require licensed engineers because they operate under an industrial exemption.

phone86753091y ago

Sounds like it's time for that to go away

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse