Remember that these are people just like you and I. They, like all humans, are seeking safety and stability for theirselves and families. The difference is that they were born, or ended up in, situations so dire they felt they had better odds trekking through the dangerous jungle(!) on foot for hundreds of miles (followed by thousands of more miles) rather than stay in their current situation.
It’s easy to get lost in the thousand foot view and giving opinions while sipping coffee & working on a laptop commenting on hacker news. Not to say any of our opinions aren’t valid - but rather just think about the people before jumping to any conclusions
Edit: This is not an argument for or against anything or any policy. Rather just a reminder that whichever side you are on, or whatever you are advocating for, just to remember we are talking about humans. That’s the only point I’m making.
For some of these people it's better odds. Particularly I'm sympathetic to people living in places like Venezuela or central Africa. But for the rest, people from places like Vietnam or China or Chile, their situations are most certainly not worth the risk. They were either sold propaganda that it was easy, or they are risking their family's lives irresponsibly for the prospect of financial gain on the idea that they can become sensationally rich in the US. I've personally known people from both of those sets, and I've been to some places in the world (and not as a military person or something like that) and seen things about as horrendous as are outlined in this article.
Losing your job during covid is not a solid motivator for a rational person to decide to do this. It takes intense desperation, delusion about the danger, or the idea that it will be incredibly worth the risk. Only people in the first circumstance can justify doing something like this when it's all said and done. The rest, they'll be traumatized in the best case scenario and then wind up in the same situation they were in back home, living in crime riddled ghettos paying too much in rent and working dead end shit jobs to barely scrape by. For many that's a worse existence than they left. There's a siren on the shores of the US, and it's song is "the land of opportunity." I've had people tell me that they literally believed the streets here were paved in gold until they arrived. The truth is, in most of the countries where these people come from, day to day life is pretty comparable, and your chances of hitting it big are about the same.
The only real benefit to those but the truly desperate is arbitraging the labor markets between countries using remittances. You can send money home to your family and they can move up and then when they're set you can return and have a higher class life. I don't believe it's moral to risk the lives of your small children for something like that.
The problem, as I see it, has nothing to do with whether people should make this journey or how much immigration is "enough" immigration. The underlying problem is the imbalance between entitlement programs and immigration. Entitlement programs create an incentive to be inside the country's borders that doesn't otherwise exist.
Both politicians and most media outlets have done a great job focusing discussion and debate on symptoms rather than root cause, that may have been intentional or unintentional. We can run in circles debating who and how many we want to allow to immigrate legally. That debate will never end when its based entirely on personal opinion.
A country with any entitlement programs has to control their borders at limit immigration. An interesting question is what to do when borders and immigration can't be controlled effectively. In that scenario, can the country continue to have entitlement programs without government debt spiralling out of control?
The issue isn't asylum or american dream, both are fine. The issue is 10-20 million people milking the housing, welfare, and medical systems -really hard-. In the clinics, some days, 100% of patients were Spanish only speaking i.e. recently arrived here or not-so-recently arrived here and never bothered to learn english. Which is a cost to the public coffers. Not the baseline medical cost, a Spanish interpreter is legally required according to another medical related law, an additional cost.
That's to say, let's eradicate all financial governmental "free money" type motivations +/- "free citizenship to anchor babies" motivations as to why a person would come here. People wistfully point to Ellis Island as the spirit of America, in that spirit, let these immigrants make their way on their two feet with their two hands, without support, as those of Ellis Island, as those before, did.
The big pain of it is many of these people come from collapsed socialist countries, but maintain some degree of socialist ideals, so they try very hard to extract socialist benefits in the US. It's like guy, why did you think you country collapsed? Oh sorry, you don't speak English, el guy-o, el-why-o el country-o el collapso?
The Darien Gap is still "wild" because not a lot of migrants crossed it historically. Most US migrants came from Mexico.
However, migration from Mexico has greatly decreased in recent decades. The net flow is around zero. [1] That's because Mexico is no longer an undeveloped country. Its nominal per-capita GDP is above Russia's and China's. [2] NAFTA was an important component of its success.
Mexico offers a blueprint for what needs to happen in Central and South America before we no longer face the temptation of putting children in cages at the border.
There are only a few countries left that fit the bill, such as Guatemala and El Salvador. Brazil and Venezuela have been recent additions (hence the Gap crossings.) Parenthetically, we have Putin to thank for a few of these, especially Venezuela.
I think we should reconsider the "hands off" attitude that (with a few exceptions) has prevailed since the end of the Cold War. Political deference, while culturally sensitive and insisted upon by some US-weary groups, has not turned out so great.
Direct US participation should be at least as much as in Europe and Asia, particularly financially. The IMF and World Bank don't have enough teeth, and it certainly beats spending money on cages.
[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/07/09/before-co...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...
The United States' post-9/11 wars have resulted in mass population displacements and widespread regional instability. Afghanistan: failure, Iraq: failure, Somalia: failure, Yemen: failure, Libya: failure. And that's only in the last few years. The West keeps thinking that it can destabilize a country, choose which side they want to win and somehow that country will emerge as a stable & successful ally without any side effects. That's delusional thinking but our governments keep doing it. We need to try something else and we know prosperity creates a more stable peace than any army.
Yes, but also Germany, Japan, South Korea—places where we did try that and it worked. So it's not delusional thinking, but also what we did in those places, and what we did in more recent places, isn't exactly the same. There was a lot more follow through after WW2 and the Korean War.
You don't usually see complaints about the right-wing bias of The Atlantic...
You seriously think the US has a 'hands' off attitude to South America?
The USA has a terrible track record when in comes to direct participation in the affairs of other countries.
Besides, the participation is in the context of that of other countries, especially Russia. It's one thing to argue that we shouldn't pull bathers out of the lake. It's another to argue that we shouldn't pull drowners out of the rapids.
I don't know details about Venezuela but it sounds like you would agree Obama/Biden also got nothing to do with Russians going all Holodomor against Ukrainians back in the day
That's a strange way to say reporting on illegal immigration reality
So for a decade we got to see the impact of those sanctions and also get to look back at the aftermath. A report came out claiming that half a million children had died as a result of those sanctions. On 60 Minutes in 1996, then UN ambassador and later Secretary of State responded to this question [1]:
> “We have heard that half a million [Iraqi] children have died. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima,” asked Stahl, “And, you know, is the price worth it?”
> “I think that is a very hard choice,” Albright answered, “but the price, we think, the price is worth it.”
Did the sanctions topple the regime? No. They almost never do. Arguably they played a role in ending the apartheid regime in South Africa but other than that, economic sanctions are simply used as a tool to punish our enemies without using a single soldier.
Roughly 8 million Venezuelans have fled in the last decade as the country has descended into chaos. It's a big part of why there's been a more than tenfold increase in people crossing the Darien Gap. Also responsible is US bribing countries in Central America to deny visas to likely refugees, forcing them to make this dangerous journey.
The sanctions on Venezuela have crushed the economy [2]. They have created the very refugee crisis that is now a domestic political issue. And it's not the leaders of Venezuela who suffer. It's people like this who risk death to try and have a better life.
You might say "Maduro is a bad guy". I'll put that up agains tth elong list of "bad guys" the US is entirely happy to support and work with: Augusto Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, Ferdjinand Marcos, Pol Pot, Mohammed bin Salman, Benjamin Netanyahu.
This isn't a partisan issue either. Both politicla parties are pretty much united when it comes to US foreign policy. Sanctions on Venezuela have a history through the Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden administrations.
So if you read a story like this and have empathy for refugees fleeing chaos and violence or maybe you simply see the (completely made up) "border crisis" and don't understand what's going on, I would hope that you can see the direct connection between these migrants and the US policy that destabilized or destroyed the countries they're mostly coming from.
[1]: https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/25/lets-remember-m...
[2]: https://www.wola.org/2020/10/new-report-us-sanctions-aggrava...
Maduro crushed their economy. The us can’t sanction oil producers into the ground as we’ve seen with Russia. It was their incredibly shitty economic policy that destroyed living standards in Venezuela. Absolutely no other reason oil production should be lower than it was a decade ago
Other than, you know, the sanctions that prevent them from selling their oil to most ofd the world?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/10/how-treacherous-darien-g...
Also, see the work of journalist Michael Yon.
> The Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) is an American anti-immigration think tank. It favors far lower immigration numbers and produces analyses to further those views. The CIS was founded by historian Otis L. Graham alongside eugenicist and white nationalist John Tanton in 1985 as a spin-off of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). It is one of a number of anti-immigration organizations founded by Tanton, along with FAIR and NumbersUSA.
> Reports published by CIS have been disputed by scholars on immigration, fact-checkers and news outlets, and immigration-research organizations. The organization had significant influence within the Trump administration, which cited the group's work to defend its immigration policies. The Southern Poverty Law Center designated CIS as a hate group with ties to the American nativist movement. The CIS sued the SPLC over the designation, but the lawsuit was dismissed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Immigration_Studies
And on Michael Yon in the Darién Gap:
> Since 2021, Yon has worked as a fixer in the Darién Gap, a dangerous stretch of jungle used by migrants entering the United States illegally. He has worked with figures such as Alex Jones and Laura Loomer, getting them access to the camps where legacy media are barred by security. A New York Times article noted that he targeted the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, quoting him as saying that "they’re coming across the border and it’s being funded with Jewish money.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Yon#2021-24_%E2%80%93_...
