NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon (opens in new tab)

You should know that in business school and after everything you just described would be called "optimized". There is some short discussion about ethics, usually involving not stealing from investors, but otherwise the world is seen as one giant place where people are the same as nuts and bolts or ingredients in a chocolate bar to be optimized. This goes for customers and employees.

My undergrad is in finance. IMO the problem is that we don't really teach what wealth is as Adam Smith defined it. A wealthy nation is not the one with the greatest stockpile of gold, but the one with the most quality goods and services easily available to its average citizens (I'm paraphrasing a bit, but you understand). Smith really stresses that profit is a measurement of the good provided to society by an activity. But in my studies, there was no concern for this quality of profit. The attitude was that any way net income (profit) could be increased was strictly to be understood as a net positive for society.

I had professors explain that war is profitable because people are employed building tanks etc. and they use their wages to stimulate the economy. When I asked 'what if instead of sending a few million dollars of steel and circuitry to the desert to get exploded, those workers used the same resources on a hospital?' I recieved the answer that if the NPV of the tank is higher than the hospital, it must be the better use of the resources.

No one really “let them” destroy things. This is one of the key dangers of majoritarian government. The moment that people can vote for representatives the representatives will be purchased, and later, the votes will purchased. Once this happens, money will be destroyed to allow the purchasing class to rob the wealth of the civilization, and this leads to financialization of economics. This pattern has been repeated over and over again. In the USA, this process started almost immediately after the formation of the country, but it didn’t become truly corrupt until the McKinley campaign. The financialization process started in 1913, saw its first bust boom/bust less than a decade later, and then purposeful inflation began in 1971. The entire economy was financialized by the late 1990s which culminated in 2008. The banks are now so bankrupt that the Fed has begun providing overnight repossessions to member banks…

It wasn't always this way. Milton Friedman introduced the idea in the 1970s that businesses could ignore their workers and communities because if they focused on profit, that would benefit everyone. Shareholder Theory elevates the stockholders above all others and leads to stock buybacks and optimizing for wealth extraction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman_doctrine

> So, what next? our organs?

Not even kidding. There are villages around where I grew up, a good number of adults have one kidney only.

Now if they manage to kidnap and kill a person, now they got two kidneys, a heart, a liver and other stuff.

> What MBAs and Financists destroyed so far:

You can add governance for as long as lobbyists have been writing law.

You can add accountability for whenever MBAs and investors come in contact with news orgs.

> So, what next? our organs?

Yep, they started with our eye balls. In exchange, we are getting "relevant ads".

Also our frontal lobe. In exchange, we get depressive dopamine releases.

> So, what next? our organs?

I’m almost certain I’ve seen a study that tried to prove opening up the organ trade would help the economy and hinder the black market.

You mention health care and education. Have you considered government’s role in this? https://kottke.org/19/02/cheap-tvs-and-exorbitant-education-...

- Social cohesion and homogeneity and all the draw backs of destroying it.

The idea that you should mass import as many people as possible to increase GDP is absolutely one of the worst things that has happened in modern time.

If you want to import this many people then it takes a lot of hard work. Singapore is a good example.

> what next? our organs?

already happening, look at the american food industry

But think about all the shareholder value they created

> They convinced us that our homes are investments, so they can fleece us with their usurary schemes. So, what next? our organs?

It's an extortionist scheme. Every additional industry or vertical is not only proof that capitalism continues to provide "value" and move society forward, but it makes more millionaires and inflates our GDP. Currency wants everything to be traded with currency. Healthcare, water, land, sex, breathable air.

Also, this ultimately benefits the Fed and other massive financial institutions. If they get together and decide policy, they can do almost whatever they want. Then that small cabal of people can scheme with the government or military to exert control. This is mostly extra-democratic.

We'd have to switch out our entire government with un-bribable ethically driven heroes in order to even put a dent in this system.

In truth we are playing pretend with democracy. Like a little game for the peasants to play pretend. While economic and military policy is decided outside of that system.

Every inch financiers can gain, is another system under the control of economic fascists.

And to claim that it is dictated in some way by profit or merit is laughable. It is only dictated by those things when they want it to be. Another game.

If you read the OIG report, it states:

"Michoud officials stated that it has been difficult to attract and retain a contractor workforce with aerospace manufacturing experience in part due to Michoud’s geographical location in New Orleans, Louisiana, and lower employee compensation relative to other aerospace competitors."

Related: https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2024/08/12/whats_b...

The Navy’s ability to build lower-cost warships that can shoot down Houthi rebel missiles in the Red Sea depends in part on a 25-year-old laborer who previously made parts for garbage trucks.

Lucas Andreini, a welder at Fincantieri Marinette Marine, in Marinette, Wisconsin, is among thousands of young workers who’ve received employer-sponsored training nationwide as shipyards struggle to hire and retain employees.

The labor shortage is one of myriad challenges that have led to backlogs in ship production and maintenance at a time when the Navy faces expanding global threats. Combined with shifting defense priorities, last-minute design changes and cost overruns, it has put the U.S. behind China in the number of ships at its disposal — and the gap is widening.

Navy shipbuilding is currently in “a terrible state” — the worst in a quarter century, says Eric Labs, a longtime naval analyst at the Congressional Budget Office. “I feel alarmed,” he said. “I don’t see a fast, easy way to get out of this problem. It’s taken us a long time to get into it.”

You must have seen how beautiful the welds are on the Rocketdyne F-1 joints. Whoever made those put pride in their work.

Having NASA come and test stuff.. Creates a 'see what sticks' kind of attitude. Eat your own dogfood

> Welders are highly qualified and well-paid craftsmen.

They’re not. You must be one of those people that hears something once and quotes it as gospel. My BIL did that yesterday: “nfl viewership has been down because of all the different platforms, and it’s been trending down for years.” As it so happens, last year was their second-best year of ratings since ratings were tracked. But, it fit his narrative, facts be damned.

“We all see the welding school advertisements: Make Over $100,000 As a Welder! And while it’s true that skilled welders are among the most sought-after workers in the job market, the average welder is bringing in $48,000 per year, a far cry from six figures.” [0]

[0] https://primeweld.com/blogs/news/how-much-do-welders-make-in....

Title of The Economists article form April:

> Can anyone pull Boeing out of its nosedive?

Apparently the answer is a sound no.

They decided to proudly shoot themselves into the stomach, then mitigating the situation by setting themselves on fire.

The inspector general is wrong saying "blame on the aerospace giant’s mismanagement and inexperienced workforce". How can someone blame clueless person? The blame is on those putting clueless person there in the first place. Or is the management the most inexperienced and clueless of all for this line of job perhaps?! As suspected for many many years now. Ajh!!

> Originally, the EUS was allocated a budget of $962 million and intended to fly on Artemis II, which in January was pushed to no earlier than September 2025. But by the OIG’s estimate, EUS costs are expected to balloon to $2 billion through 2025 and reach $2.8 billion by the time Artemis IV lifts off in 2028.

Lets see they were allocated a budget of $962 million in order to deliver in 2025. But now they can deliver in 2028 and they will be paid $2.8 billion.

They would have to be stupid to deliver in time.

> Turns out they're just a giant company

That should die. This is what happens when you allow monopolies, you can’t even let them die because you’ll be left with nothing.

They face no competition , and have no reason to improve

I do not know the details of their contracts, but assuming these are cost-plus contracts then it may be fair to equate structural dysfunction to intent.

"Moss on my teeth is hindering my getting a date" reads the same. I think different people will get different interpretations.

It only reads that way if you're being very very generous and have lived under a rock for the past few years so that you've not seen any other information about Boeing.

I usually despise stack rank, but it looks like there are times when it's needed. Maybe companies should mostly eschew it for other methods, but run it once per decade and flush out all the dead weight, of course, including management.

This is why bankruptcy is such a good thing in private industry. And we need a mechanism like bankruptcy for government agencies.

There is a very interesting video from Smarter Every Day that suggests everyone knows that the SLS is physically incapable of landing on the moon as designed but nobody seems to be mentioning it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoJsPvmFixU

We're the only nation that has ever done it. It seems like unchecked graft is our current main problem. In the scope of all problems of returning people to the Moon this is both expected and the easiest to deal with.

If they keep awarding contracts to SpaceX for getting the needed pieces done, then it's possible. :)

At least until SpaceX starts to feel a bit too comfortable... o_O

If America can make space a crusade again instead of a business sure.

The Chinese are currently in their Apollo phase in which every engineer dedicates their life to the mission.

There are no NIMBYs on the moon, so maybe?

I honestly hope so or soon after although I think it unlikely. The psychological shock to the nation & to the world of seeing China do it before us will be immense. It will have indicated a changing of the guard and the decline of America.

But I like to think we will.

That was always a bullshit date. No different than elder Bush's Mars in 2030. 2028, maybe if everything goes well with Starship, and the suits. Their lunar variant is still a disaster waiting to happen without a better design. We've seen how Starship destroys a launch pad with ill-conceived flame diversion. How is it going to land on unprepared regolith without toppling in its own crater or destroying the engines with rebounding shrapnel? SLS is also supposed to somehow fit into the picture which is still not tested in any way resembling the baby steps Apollo took.

Well we're over 1,000 days in to Kamala Harris' $42B universal broadband access program and not a single subscriber has been connected.

NNT wrote Skin in the Game, which discusses such types of managers who cause similar damages.

He argues that there should be clawbacks to managers that harm a company to the degree Boeing’s current management has.

He invokes The Code of Hammurabi to illustrate how ancient civilization used to deal with such class of professionals.

Just read a little farther, here are some comments on technical issues:

>“According to NASA officials, the welding issues arose due to Boeing’s inexperienced technicians and inadequate work order planning and supervision,” the OIG says. “The lack of a trained and qualified workforce increases the risk that Boeing will continue to manufacture parts and components that do not adhere to NASA requirements and industry standards.”

I feel that in this situation the balme is valid. Engineering was spot on until management threw it out the window as something in the way for making money.

They wanted to make things for sales, not for use. Usability is the side effect for sellable for them apparently: sometimes happen, sometimes not. While they were pushing on with sell sell sell sell sell, sell nooow! Instead of making something that is needed and is usable, so people would want to buy.

SpaceX is about to launch Starship for the fifth time in a few weeks. If they pull off a controlled landing and catch (which they are rumored to attempt), that's going to be the best ticket to the moon by far. They might actually manage to get there before the Chinese if they put their mind to it and get the resources and backing to do it.

Chinese peer pressure might achieve what years of lobbying hasn't managed to achieve: a sense of urgency. The Chinese establishing a moon base without US boots on the surface would be a major embarrassment. They've done a few unmanned landings now. So, they clearly have the capability to pull this off now.

Maybe SpaceX should finish the HLS that they have saying should have landed on the Moon by now.

I found it here: https://oig.nasa.gov/office-of-inspector-general-oig/nasas-m...

Off-topic: Dear proud American, pls loosen up your immigration rules for highly-skilled workers who despite the last years would still be very grateful to move to America.

We want our grandchildren to one day also be proud Americans.

Cheers, A friend from abroad who still believes in America

It's a pervasive problem among all gov contractors. Most don't pay as well as private market, and you have the added downside of needing a clearance in a lot of positions, so they try to make it up with "job security". That means, when times are tough, instead of letting people go they freeze or cap raises, often below inflation. Good people wind up leaving.

If half your best people leave every few years when the gov hits its next debt ceiling, your company is gonna have a bad time.

Another version of this first is the Blue Marble and Earth rise images when they looped around the Moon for the first time. IIRC, at least one climate group formed based on them.

I think Nasa has forgotten how to Nasa because of SpaceX. They still cannot adapt to how fast SpaceX moves. They are used to being able to plan everything for years as technology moved slowly. Now their plans are obsolete by launch date.

Boeing appears to have simply collapsed under its own hubris.

Boeing haven't exactly been covering themselves with glory with their non-NASA work over the last decade or two, either. But I'd still go with "both" :)

The blame should honestly go to Congress, because they keep interfering in the process to force NASA to stick with SLS. NASA has tried several times to ditch this albatross around their necks only to be scolded by influential senators determined to keep money flowing into their states despite the overall project failing wildly.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/02/so-long-senator-shel...

More than middle management, it was extreme financialization.

That was the decision of US elites decades ago. The whole matter becomes a bit clearer if you regard those elites as aristocratic and the US happened to be one of their most fertile lands.

How do you extract value from your land? There are many ways.

SpaceX faces the same risks of becoming a monopolist and then declining. To give the whole contract to him maybe is a good short term solution, but long term it will end badly.

Indeed. Iirc Falcon Heavy has the capability right.now. They time/effort only needs to be spent on the lander and getting back.

Has SpaceX even been outside low earth orbit with anything meaningful?

Sure, let’s give the richest man on earth who spends more time trolling on Twitter than working more taxpayer dollars for his self enrichment

Honestly think we're beyond that now. They need stripping of all government contracts - obviously not in one go as theres currently no alternatives in many cases. They certainly should be banned from being involved in anything going forwards.

And SpaceX doesn't? They had the same requirements.

Boeing failed to meet the basic standards, but has been given a pass by NASA up til now. Bad welds? Sternly worded letter. Inadequate heat shielding? Well, it didn't get too hot so let's try with people. Bad valves? Just replace the broken ones, In sure there's no borderline valves from a systemic problem. Leaky tanks? Not a problem. Flaky thrusters that might not be able to make it to re-entry? Hold on there!

Nope - Boeing has been failing at many things for many years - this is the fault of putting accountants in charge.

Good examples. The same comparison can be made in other western countries. When I point out there issues, people act like they were always there - but they weren’t. We used to build! Or they say it’s an inherent feature of democracy. Or they get angry.

I watched the Superman movie with my kids the other day and I wondered how a planet like Krypton could just collapse after all its accomplishments. It seemed unrealistic. I totally understand now.

Because Congress critters use it as a means to spend taxpayer money on purchasing votes. They'll do pretty much anything to avoid having to admit that SLS was a mistake.

It's pork for states like Alabama, Mississippi, and Florida. The joke for years has been that SLS stands for "Senate Launch System."

Probably the same reason the Space Shuttle wasn't cancelled even through pretty early on it was clear that it didn't make sense.

Upper management decisions are seldom made for good technical reasons.

Same reason the most popular political candidates never make it past primaries.