Mono made a lot of sense for running places where full .NET didn't, like in full AOT environments like on the iPhone where you can't JIT, or for random architectures that don't matter anymore but once did for Linux (Alpha, Itanium, PPC, MIPs, etc.). When Microsoft bought Xamarin (which itself was born out of the ashes of the Novell shutdown of the Mono effort) and started the DotNET Core efforts to make .NET more portable itself and less a system-provided framework and merge in a lot of the stuff Mono did a single more focused project made more sense.
Mono was still left out there to support the edge cases where DotNET Core didn't make sense, which was mostly things like being a backend for Wine stuff in some cases, some GNOME Desktop stuff (via GTK#, which is pretty dead now), and older niche use cases (second life and Unity still embed mono as a runtime for their systems). The project was limping, though, and sharing a standard library but different runtimes after much merging. Mono's runtime was always a little more portable (C instead of C++) and more accessible to experiment with, but we need that less and less, but it's still perfect for Wine. So, having it live on in Wine makes sense. It's a natural fit.
Is there good documentation somewhere for getting set up to develop with modern .NET on Linux?
For example, just download .NET 8 SDK on whatever platform, which is usually very easy on most platforms, and then run `dotnet fsi` to get into an F# REPL.
You can install at the link below, and then making a project is just `dotnet new console` and run with `dotnet run`
History here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET
.NET Core 1.0 (2016) was the first cross platform prototype. It got good in a release in 2018 or 2019, I even forgot which now. And took over steadily after that.
We don't even think about it any more. "which OS is the prod env on" isn't a factor that causes any support worries at all.
Getting set up would start at https://dot.net/
And the download page, which should show you content for your current OS https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/download
But also other targets are here https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/download/dotnet/8.0
You'll want the latest SDK 8.0.x
I would say I’m not ‘new’ and even developed .net 4.5 for a number of years. I’m just as stumped by the naming mess that Microsoft made across the board in that space.
Edit: I say 4.5 because I mean the original thick .net which is not dotnet core, which I think is the way to differentiate between versions, but also all the sub libraries like the orm were iirc named the same but did different things.
They should have rebadged everything with a new name that didn’t involve a word that is fairly painful to google (‘core’) can be used in development as well as the name of a framework.
For a historic summary of why it used to be a confusing situation (up until maybe 2020), see https://two-wrongs.com/dotnet-on-non-windows-platforms-brief...
That also has some background on why the Mono project found itself in a weird spot.
https://time.graphics/line/291016
This is quite overwhelming, but it can still be useful when reading an article about .NET that is either older or refers to history as you can quickly see where in time it is located.
Not really. It's legacy cruft all the way down.
But the good news is that if you stay on the beaten path, using the latest SDK and targeting the latest Runtime, everything Just WorksTM.
currently debian has a mono package but no dotnet-core package. i'm not sure why this is; usually when debian lacks a popular nominally open-source package like this, it's either because it fails to build from source, or because it has some kind of tricky licensing pitfall that most people haven't noticed, but diligent debian developers have
does anyone know why this problem exists for dotnet-core?
also, does dotnet-core have a reasonable aot story for things like esp32 and ch32v003?
Fedora [2], Ubuntu [3], and FreeBSD [4] build .NET from source themselves. A lot of work has been done to make it possible to build .NET from source [5] without closed source components, so it might just be a matter of someone being motivated to create the package for Debian.
[1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/install/linux-...
[2]: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/dotnet8.0
[3]: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dotnet8
[4]: https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/tree/main/lang/dotn...
Does Debian require packages to work on all of its architectures? If so, that could be the issue. .NET Core only supports x86, x64, and Arm64 (I think Arm32 has been discontinued and RISC-V is experimental at this point).
It's possible that they object to .NET Core having certain license restrictions on the Windows port (https://github.com/dotnet/core/blob/main/license-information...). .NET Core is mostly MIT or Apache licensed, but the Windows SDK has some additional terms. Skimming the third party licenses, that doesn't seem like an issue (mostly MIT/BSD/Apache or similar).
I think the licensing situation is an interesting question: if you have software that's 100% open source when compiled for your OS, but requires non-free stuff to run on Windows, is it ok to include in Debian? It looks like none of the non-free stuff (like WPF) gets distributed with the non-Windows SDK builds. Binaries created from your code only depend on MIT-licensed stuff on macOS and Linux, but might depend on something closed-source when targeting Windows - though it looks like almost all of that stuff is either WPF (so you wouldn't be able to develop on Linux/Mac anyway since those libraries wouldn't be in the SDK on those platforms) or were removed as a runtime dependency in .NET 7. It looks like `Microsoft.DiaSymReader.Native` might be the only thing left. Maybe that's what is holding it back?
> also, does dotnet-core have a reasonable aot story for things like esp32 and ch32v003?
"Reasonable" can be a lot of things to a lot of different people. People have been working on RISC-V support. Samsung seems interested in it. But I probably wouldn't recommend it at the moment - and Mono doesn't really have RISC-V support either.
Does the wine project have the resources and knowledge to maintain it?
Or is it just so that microsoft can say they aren't the ones discontinuing it?
But he was in love with COM/DCOM, registry, and many other things that MS shipped. Some of these things made Gnome much slower than it could be.
Wikipedia says,
> Until 2020, Microsoft had not made any public statements about Wine. ... On 16 February 2005, Ivan Leo Puoti discovered that Microsoft had started checking the Windows Registry for the Wine configuration key and would block the Windows Update for any component. As Puoti noted: "It's also the first time Microsoft acknowledges the existence of Wine."
> In January 2020, Microsoft cited Wine as a positive consequence of being able to reimplement APIs, in its amicus curiae brief for Google LLC v. Oracle America, Inc.
I still don't trust MS's motives in general, but I think they at least recognize that Wine/Proton helps make the Win32 and DirectX APIs a sort of de-facto cross-platform standard when it comes to things like desktop gaming, and that this is a good thing for them.
On the server side, MS knows that Linux is by far the most popular server OS, and official support for running .NET backend apps on Linux from MS themselves is a win for them as well.
I'm not sure if it benefits microsoft in the long term, because the "backwards compatibility" features of Wine need to be implemented in Windows already as a part of the system. So in the long run wine/proton/mono will implement windows features on linux in an optional/replaceable/modular way in user-space while keeping backwards compatibility for older windows software, while windows is forced to implement (and distribute these features) with their OS and has to sacrifice backwards compatibility if they want to simply their OS.
I would say that the adoption of wine/proton helps the linux ecosystem a lot more because there wasn't a standard executable format for linux beforehand (static? tarball of program and dynamic libraries? .deb file? AppImage? Flatpak? Higher-level language like java?). How do you reliably link to libraries like mesa or even glibc? Now there is a solution: just distribute a windows program and test it to confirm it works in wine/proton. Perhaps it is better for DirectX adoption, but it seems like Vulkan/OpenGL/WebGPU are still superior in terms of cross-compatibility, regardless if you use wine or not.
Next they killed of an open source competitor (Mono) of their product, stole the usefull bits to put it in .Net, and now they dump the leftover project (that's not competing with them anymore) back into the OS world.
How is that not a smart way of doing business?
If the answer for .Net was 'no' then there are meaningful domains where people would just jump ship in a second. Research, academia, teaching, and certain government areas pop to mind. Keeping Linux support, because of that server dominance, is a core concern for them.
I think it's the same for any global enterprise: profit.
In that regard, "trusting" something like MS is like evaluating their stock: what do they make money off, what is a threat to that. Which makes it rather easy to "trust" them: if they can make money off SomeOpenSourceProject they'll help it along, if it doesn't help, nor threat, they'll ignore it. If it's a threat, they'll put (some) money towards fighting it.
For me the difficult part, and why I still don't fully trust MS, even with Github or VScode lies in their internal competition: MS has projects that directly compete eachother. Business-wise it makes no sense to me (and is the primary reason I'll stay away from investing in MSFT). But also their internal competion between profit now and delayed profit. MS has often done things (or not done things) that increase the bottom line this quarter, but harm them over years. In that regard too, MS makes no sense to me Business-wise. I guess having a cash-cow-"monopoly" for decades kinda absolves them of the responsibility to run the entire company in a way that makes sense business-wise.
There are perfectly fine _actual_ cross-platform standards like Vulcan and OpenGL. If your goal is cross-platform, making a Windows app that you hope will be converted well enough is a strange way to approach it.
You can argue that the my-thing-wrapped-inside-your-thing increases exposure to my-thing and that's a net good outweighing any other factors, but you can just as validly argue it helps divert from actual adoption of my-thing and facilitates never moving from your-thing, since no one has any actual empirical study, it's all just feelings and beliefs.
Maybe one logical argument that might have some meat is maybe WSL/Wine just means that the exposure vs crutch aspects cancel each other out (for every user who is exposed to foreign-thing and maybe decides to adopt it, there is another user who thanks to the swallowed version does not ever have to to move), and if that's true, then any imbalance in effects comes down to the the innate virtues of the two things. Both groups of people are equally exposed to both platforms and have equally good-enough use of both platforms, and neither has to actually change to get the benefits of the other, and so the user will choose whichever actually seems to serve their needs the best as their native platform.
I wonder if it's possible to make a desktop backed by WSL that would be a better experience than the current ad/spying-riddled Windows native desktop? Then MS would be forced to try to enshittify WSL so that it doesn't provide an escape and superior experience from the current Windows experience. Is WSL a good thing THEN?
At least for now, WSL has absolute crap access to hardware, not even just like gpus for gaming but even simple things like access to a usb-serial adapter. So, it's probably not possible to make a functional WSL desktop yet. Maybe such things will intentionally never be fixed in WSL just for this reason, so you can only ever use it for pure web app development no different from a cloud instance.
I've worked with Azure team, all greenfield they do for Azure goes on Linux as well. Windows Server is pretty much dead to Microsoft though it will be continue to be supported and released because $$$.
It’s the exact same situation as downloading a Windows ISO from Microsoft’s website and running it with an activator.
It's hazy to me when reverse engineering of APIs is and isn't allowed.
I think that they don't care about going against the open soruce community, given that Microsoft uses a lot of open source software in their products (also, probably violates the terms of the GPL license of such software).
We're hard at work adding Luau (https://luau.org) as a supported language for both in-world scripting as well as client/viewer-side scripting. As a handy byproduct of that, LSL will also gain the ability to be compiled to Luau bytecode, allowing us to eventually (someday, at least) shed any need for our custom-patched version of Mono 2.6. More juicy details here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Lua_FAQ
Source: I work at Linden Lab. If these sorts of things excite anyone, we're hiring! https://lindenlab.com/careers
However Mono is easier to embed into other applications and easier to port to new platforms. That is for example why it's used for the .NET/Blazor WebAssembly stuff. Microsoft still maintains their own fork of Mono for this specific use case.
Mono also implements some of the legacy Windows Desktop GUI frameworks like WinForms and WPF that Microsoft never bothered to port to their new .NET runtime. This is probably why the Wine developers might be interested in Mono.
Edit: quick hat tip to Mono.Cecil which I've used a couple of times to crack .Net components to bypass licensing code. It's not that we didn't pay for them but we couldn't be bothered to deal with license deployment and maintenance.
But as I just had a Powerbook I used Mono to run it on OS X. At the end of the course someone from Microsoft came to the university to answer any of our question about upcoming features in .NET and C#. And as we were a small group I set directly in front of him with the shiny apple point at him.
Very interesting language at that time. .NET not so much. Also still remember that we were tasked to implement 3 sort algorithms of our choice. One of mine was bogosort and with Mono on PPC it could sort up to 7 elements, before becoming really slow.
This is my first time seeing Microsoft acknowledge Wine's existence, and in this case, it was at least in a friendly manner? Or could there be bad faith behind this 'donation'?
While I am still wary of Microsoft after their previous anti-competitive behaviors, I think they've taken a more pragmatic view of late, and realize that projects like Wine are actually good for their platform as a whole. I expect if Wine/Proton did not exist, we'd see more (for example) Windows-only games ported to macOS or Linux. With Wine/Proton, those ports are mostly not necessary, and Microsoft gets to say that Win32/DirectX is something of a cross-platform gaming "standard".
See <https://simonwillison.net/2024/Jul/13/give-people-something-...>.
When a publisher or manufacturer wants to end a product line, instead of shutting it down, spin it out as F/LOSS, and give it some seed money. If the thing is good, people will pick it up and it will survive. If not, the company still gains public appreciation.
This dovetails well as a potential solution into the problem we are discussing in the Smart TV, smart home, smart vehicle articles.
(if you respond, please, lets not get into his politics; HN is not the right place to have that kind of discussion)
Today, there are 2.5 Mono's:
Mono that lives in https://github.com/mono/mono. This is the original Mono codebase that was written back then and was the .NET Framework for Linux, with corresponding compat. and such, pioneered by Miguel De Icaza, who now seems to be happier in Swift land. At the present day, it was receiving very little maintenance and I don't believe was actively used. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Mono that lives in https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/tree/main/src/mono. This is the Mono that got merged into .NET, becoming the building block for multiple components and one of the official runtime flavours. It is actively maintained and is at relative feature parity with CoreCLR, predominantly serving mobile targets (iOS, Android) and WASM as well as exotic or legacy targets like ARMv6, LA64, s390x(?), ppc64. It is also useful for initial stages of new platform bring-up process. Note that you are not expected to use it for targets that support CoreCLR due to a massive rift in performance between the two. When you are using it, you do so as a part of standard .NET toolchain - it is picked automatically for appropriate targets, or can be opted into with some configuration.
Mono that lives in https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine-mono/mono which is a Mono fork actively maintained by Wine for its own usage. Going forward, any possible ambiguities regarding ownership and stewardship are considered resolved and the ownership of mono/mono and everything related to it is transferred to WineHQ.
Honorable mention also goes to private Mono fork used by Unity which they are (painfully) trying to migrate from.
Not that massive; factor 1.8 as we found out recently.
The comparison we discussed was for unrepresentative code that used none of the features that make .NET fast (generics, SIMD, expected forms of inheritance and abstraction and devirtualization they enable, CoreLib APIs). The closest case in there was JSON serialization which CoreCLR was 385% faster at. It is unfortunate that you feel a need to say this, knowing that it doesn't even show a tip of the iceberg.
Please do not mislead casual readers here with such comments.
They will have a bad time running basic programs - the original Mono is outdated and cannot execute assemblies that target non-legacy versions, and the Mono that lives in dotnet/runtime (which you have to go out of your way to use on CoreCLR platforms) tends to have all kinds of regressions on user-provided code that is not as robust on runtime checks to ensure that Mono does not accidentally go onto the path that that it has especially bad regression on. Even CoreLib code nowadays uses more and more struct generics assuming monomorhpization which performs poorly on Mono. There is very little work done to improve performance on Mono with effort invested mostly in WASM area and to ensure it does not regress further. Major platforms like Android and iOS are in the slow but steady progress to migrate to CoreCLR/NativeAOT (there are other reasons not in the least much smaller binary size). And for WASM there is NativeAOT-LLVM experiment that is likely to make Mono obsolete for that target too.
The workloads that matter and are representative are the ones produced by C#, F# and VB.NET compilers as well as projects that care about exercising the standard library and/or produce recommended CIL forms (like https://github.com/FractalFir/rustc_codegen_clr).
I have a number of these devices running in the house doing various things.
Given modern Python means type annotations everywhere, the convenience edge between it and modern C# (which dispenses with much of the javaesque boilerplate) is surprisingly thin, and the capabilities of the .net runtime far superior in many ways, making it quite an appealing alternative especially for perf sensitive stuff.
export DOTNET_CLI_TELEMETRY_OPTOUT=1
Blazor: It's Microsoft's way of doing in-browser C#. It can do quick-and-dirty server-side HTML, and professional-grade, in-browser WASM.
Why is this useful "for someone who develops web application backends"?
The nice thing about server-side Blazor is that you can make a management console, or otherwise port ops scripts, into a self-service page. Because you can choose to render on the server, you don't have to write an API, serialize your response, ect. You can do a SQL-ish query (with LINQ and Entity Framework) in the middle of HTML.
(Granted, for production-grade pages Blazor can run in the browser as WASM and use industrial-strength APIs.)
Why .NET > Go in my opinion? - performance-wise the gap is not big and probably even .NET can be quicker - development time can be reduced, tooling is great for .NET and even funny-not-funny error handling is cleaner - still much easier to find people in .NET than Go where I live and work
Now it's time to verify those assumptions - I'm going to implement next real project in .NET and see how it went. Hobby or "trials" in .NET resulted in fun and speed, but it often happens on first date :)
Binaries will be huge tho compared to Go. I’ve a few CLIs that I that I my customers need to use, I’m planning to rewrite them in Go for this reason.
[1] https://learn.microsoft.com/dotnet/core/deploying/native-aot... [2] https://github.com/MichalStrehovsky/sizegame?tab=readme-ov-f... [3] https://learn.microsoft.com/dotnet/core/deploying/native-aot...
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/linq/get-sta...
Although the SQL-like form isn't always favoured, and quite a lot of the time I use the plain OO one.
Oh yes, extension methods: do you want object X to support method Y, but can't change object X? Well, provided you don't need access to anything private, you can just add a method and do X.Y()
And making a cross platform app framework which looks like native UI is much harder.
In contrast, Unity's UI systems are all terrible and looking native isn't even one of their goals.
I'm a little out-of-the-loop here.
Does this announcement mean that Microsoft used to fund developers to work on this project, and now will cut that funding?
But:
> Microsoft maintains a modern fork of Mono runtime in the dotnet/runtime repo and has been progressively moving workloads to that fork.
Does that mean that this mono project and its associated repo and what is within the dotnet repo are not the same and could (if they have not already) diverge?
Since then, microsoft supports https://github.com/dotnet/runtime, which is MIT licensed
Mono has no reason to live anymore, hence the lack of commits and contributions
It is a dead project, I wonder what winehq has in mind here
edit: as pointed by the comments, mono supports .net runtime before the newer ".net core" (which is not compatible). Because wine wants to be able to run older windows code, they probably still use this.
This isn't really true. Mono functions as a complete replacement for the ".NET Framework" - something that can be used to run any .NET app, including "legacy" apps targeting old ".NET Framework" versions, on any supported platform, even when the app was built to target Windows.
dotnet/runtime is intended to run more modern applications that target ".NET Core" - basically, stuff that's cross-platform on purpose.
There are tons of subtle differences relating to these goals but also some glaringly obvious ones, like mono having an implementation of Windows.Forms.
> hence the lack of commits and contributions
Microsoft have been actively forcing contributors out of mono/mono and into the dotnet/runtime repo for several years now, while Wine kept a weird halfway fork at https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine-mono/mono . Formally transferring `mono/mono` and the Mono name over to Wine will in theory allow `mono` to more effectively accept code which works to improve legacy .NET Framework support for compatibility reasons, while dotnet/runtime can continue to evolve as the way to run intentionally targeted .NET Core code.
- Originally there was .Net Framework, by microsoft, for windows only. Versions 1.0 -> 4.8 were released.
- Then mono came along as a somewhat clean-room reimplementation of .Net framework, focusing on making it run on Linux. Though mono does not implement windows gui widgets, so for that there's stuff like Gtk#. And you cannot run windows GUI applications on mono for this reason, even though the core parts might be portable. Eventually Microsoft acquihired the Mono team.
- Later on Microsoft made the core of .net open source and portable, creating .Net Core. Or .Net Runtime, linked above, which is apparently the same thing (not sure when they dropped the "Core" part of the name). Applications written for .Net Framework can't just be recompiled for .Net Core/Runtime, there is porting work that needs to be done. And similarly as for .Net framework, even though the core is portable and open source, the windows gui libraries are not. So again windows GUI applications written using .Net Runtime cannot run on Linux. Not sure if there exists anything like Gtk# for .Net Runtime, allowing creating native Linux GUI applications with .Net Runtime?
- Finally, we have wine which is an implementation of the Windows API on Linux. And in a wine environment you can install e.g. .Net Framework including GUI libraries, so you can run .Net GUI applications that way.
More targets, much leaner (< 10 MB clr + mscorlib), less than factor two performance difference to current CoreCLR, written in C, easier to compile than CoreCLR, etc.
On the website (where my quote comes from) it links to https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/tree/main/src/mono which is a mono within what you linked too.
So this is a case of 2 different mono's?
Sorry just trying to make sure I am understanding what is happening here properly given the exact same name in 2 places...
Edit: To add, isn’t the above about ASP .NET Core? Mono is mostly about the time before Core, and it is not the same.
Yes, they have diverged. Just as Microsoft forked the CLR to create CoreCLR, so too has mono been forked. Features like multiple AppDomains have been removed from this fork. Here is an example pull request:
Is this true? The pre-releases and version 1 of .Net came with the source for a reference implementation of the CLR that ran on Linux or BSD. I can't remember what license it had and I thought Mono was a separate project, but maybe Mono was based on it. Not that it matters now.
The Mono website has an archive of an old mailing list post which at the time talks about even-older origin of the project. It is (of course) heavily biased for Mono, and hilariously gives me an awkward shout out ;P.
So it ran on Windows, FreeBSD and Mac OS X making it the first non-Windows implementation of .Net, but it didn't run on Linux. It also had a fairly useless licence, so Mono was separate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_Source_Common_Language_...
Edited to add: and thanks for the link. Only three developers and there's already drama! :-)
Lagacy .Net never supported OSes other than Windows. Mono, released in 2004, was the first attempt to bring it to other OSes.
Mono is still really the only way to run older .NET (pre FOSS runtime/Core .NET) on non-Windows platforms.
So Wine has historically kept a fork of mono for use within Wine for supporting .NET apps.
Modern .NET can be built for Linux, etc so this is less relevant now but there are still a lot of apps that depend on old .NET and Wine still gets value out of that.
There are a bunch of downstreams that get used for various purposes (Microsoft uses mono for webasm embedded .NET for example) so it makes sense to give over ownership of Mono to the Wine community as they are best aligned with the original upstream's intended use case (as a full replacement for .NET).
So yes it's on life support but arguably more in the sense that it has since specialized into a bunch of downstream projects. The upstream will probably mainly be used for coordinating common improvements that all of the downstream forks care about (which are mainly Wine and Microsoft).
Also, I'm not sure how relevant Mono is in the context of Wine. .NET Core is no longer an OS component, but just a runtime that ships with software. Imo their focus should be on getting said runtime working, rather than maintaining a .NET fork.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-25/microsoft...
This way will allow them to improve Mono accordingly? Who knows? /me-thinks...
Games themselves typically aren't .NET but ancillary components, like launchers or map editors, are.
but it is indeed the basis for Proton
Or is this more of a steward role rather than technical connection
> The Kubernetes project currently lacks enough active contributors to adequately respond to all issues.
I kept thinking Microsoft needs to port a windows version for their handheld, doesn't want to use steamos, but also needs to work with 'interesting' hardware. Their answer would be a linux port imo, but having too much there could annoy trust regulators so they divested from mono. but I had zero proof for any of these hunches.
No wonder Miguel de Icaza is now focused on Swift, Godot and Apple's ecosystem, all the promises done at Xamarin acquisition time are gone now.
Mono Develop killed, after being renamed into VS4Mac, gone through a rewrite, only to be killed shortly after the rewrite reached 1.0.
Xamarin.Forms rewriten into MAUI, with incompatible APIs.
MSIL Linker had a better chance as a critical piece of Blazor WebAssembly and Native AOT.
The whole dotnet reload drama.
Now Mono donation, and then .NET team is surprised .NET uptake on UNIX shops isn't as they expect.
In alternative universe when the Xamarin acquisition didn't happen, where would we be now?
The license cost was high, and the MS acquisition came right around the time React Native and Flutter started to enter v1. I think they'd of been blown out of the water pretty quickly. At least Microsoft allowed Xamarin to get into enterprise .NET shops pretty quickly. There's a lot of B2B form based apps written in Xamarin. I worked on a pretty big one that made (and continues to make) a lot of money.
I've long assumed the point of the acquisition was because Xamarin did basically all the hard work of allowing .NET to be cross platform.
https://www.codeguru.com/dotnet/net-nuts-bolts-the-joy-of-ro...
Or DotGNU?
https://www.gnu.org/software/dotgnu/
What happened to Xamarin looks like Microsoft took whatever IP was relevant, and left everything else go, which this decision is a confirmation thereof.
It is kind of interesting to see Miguel's feedback, now that he his allowed to talk about how things went down.
Second paragraph of the article by the way, just saying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
